Early in my recruiting career, checking references was my job.
A candidate would give me an old colleague who liked them. I’d call to ask if they enjoyed working with so-and-so, and we’d have a really dull, rote conversation. It’s how I learned to understand recruiting and hiring, and it’s also when I started to see that those references may not be worth the paper they’re written on.
James Lord wants to fix that. He has spent nearly 20 years in HR technology, and in 2025 he joined Refapp, a Swedish reference platform that lives inside the applicant tracking system. His argument starts with a distinction people blur all the time. A background check tells you whether someone was convicted of a crime. A reference, he says, tells you about character and observed behavior, the stuff you only learn by working next to someone.
According to James, structure is what makes references useful. Employers should have a say in who gives the reference and should ask evidence-based questions built around what high performers in a role have in common. References know the candidate won’t see their answers, and they can respond from their phone without writing an essay. When a former colleague’s company has a no-references policy, James suggests reaching them through a personal Gmail or LinkedIn instead, because people who worked together are usually willing to help each other out.
James points out that resumes are polished, often by AI, and most people are still only in the office two or three days a week. He’s especially focused on counterproductive work behaviors like bullying, which a candidate is unlikely to admit in an interview. If you’re hiring someone with keys to the building or time alone with an older patient, he says a clean criminal record doesn’t tell you enough.
James borrows an old line for all of this: “People only do what is inspected, not what is expected of them.” It’s cynical, and I like it, even if I want to believe humans are a little better than that. A good reference check gives you a clear look at who you’re hiring before the offer letter goes out.
In this episode, you will hear:
- How reference checking differs from background checking, and why people mix them up
- Why letting candidates pick any reference they want gets you nothing useful
- The 180% ROI James calculates for structured reference checks
- How to get references from people whose companies forbid giving them
- Why interviews miss counterproductive work behaviors like bullying
- How one reference turned into a brand-new candidate
- James’s upcoming DisruptHR talk, “The Reference Check Is a Lie”
Watch the video:
Resources from this episode:
- Connect with James on LinkedIn: http://ca.linkedin.com/in/jameswlord
- Start your extended free trial of Refapp: https://www.refapp.com/hey-laurie-friend
- Learn more about Refapp: https://www.refapp.com
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