My guest for this episode is Karoline Saffi, chief people officer at Mission Cloud. Karoline and I discuss how HR can become more transparent, how Mission Cloud is creating tech career growth opportunities, and the importance of being agile and open-minded in HR today.
Karoline has worked in HR for many years at companies such as DreamHost and Gimbal. She even left the corporate world for a while before coming back and eventually joining the Mission Cloud team. Ultimately, what attracts Karoline to HR is the opportunity to make a difference in people’s lives.
“Even when I didn’t have a very clear vision of what my career should look like over time, I was fortunate to be connected with people who had that idea and kind of pushed me along the way,” Karoline says.
Punk Rock HR is proudly underwritten by Betterworks. The world’s most dynamic organizations rely on Betterworks to accelerate growth by supporting transparent goal setting, enabling continuous performance and learning from employee insights. Betterworks is on a mission to help HR leaders make work better. Discover how they can help you by visiting www.betterworks.com.
Transparency in Work and Tech
HR professionals take a softer, more human approach to the job than decades ago. As employee priorities change, HR needs to be more empathetic and transparent if it truly wants to be people-first. Karoline attributes this shift to technology advancements that increase the flow of information — including HR’s ability to communicate about compensation.
“You want to know how much you should be getting paid, how much we’re willing to pay for your job, what is the salary range?” she says. “Let’s talk about it. Let’s help you understand where you fall within the range and why.”
This type of transparency aligns with Mission Cloud’s purpose as a managed services provider and cloud consulting company that works closely to connect clients with Amazon Web Services.
“When people think about tech, I think they make it be this unattainable thing, like you will never understand it,” Karoline says. “And that’s not what it is. It’s in everything that we do every day. It’s in the websites that you use, it’s in the applications on your phone, and it’s all learnable.”
And the company isn’t just transparent with its customers, but internally, too. Mission Cloud is defined by six core values, and it’s not just for show. There’s a values advisory committee that reports into the senior leadership team.
Mission Cloud’s Commitment to Cloud Literacy
Cloud engineering is a crucial need for Mission Cloud, but there’s not enough people trained in this specialty. That’s something the company hopes to change with its Cloud Literacy Commitment program. The initiative seeks to raise awareness of opportunities in the field and get more people to become cloud professionals.
“When you are a little kid in school and they ask you what you want to be when you grow up, you’re probably thinking a fireman or a doctor or whatever it might be. There are other options,” she says.
The biggest goal for Mission Cloud is to develop a talent ecosystem, even if not all of the people affected end up working for the company.
“We’re out there sponsoring people to get their certifications, just to come and listen to us talk about the cool things that we do,” Karoline says. “And then if they are interested, they can join our internship program or they can join our apprenticeship program.”
This effort isn’t just about getting more people into cloud engineering and related fields, but also about expanding the diversity of the pool of talent.
“There isn’t a lot of diversity in tech that comes naturally. I think it’s something that only happens with intention and when you’re deliberate about the way that you make hiring decisions, or even the people that we put through our evolution program. We just have to try to do this intentionally and deliberately,” Karoline says.
Flexibility as the Future of HR
To be an HR leader today requires you to be agile, open to change and willing to adapt.
Karoline experienced this firsthand when her team wanted to implement specific software. Despite everyone’s best efforts, the software didn’t work in practice. Rather than continuing to struggle, Karoline gave the team permission to abandon the effort — without repercussions.
The employee “was super-happy because she was like, ‘Oh my gosh, I thought you’re going to fire me or something,’” Karoline says. “I’ve felt that before where people tell me, ‘You better make it work.’ And it’s like, ‘If it’s not going to work, it’s not going to work.’ Let’s just be up front with it.”
HR also needs to become more flexible in how work is organized. This is especially important for working mothers and other people who can be great employees but might need nontraditional job structures.
“Does the job need to look like how it looked before or can it look a little bit different? Can it happen at different times? Does it have to be one full job? Can it be broken up into different pieces?” she says. “I think having that flexibility is something that everyone is going to be forced to do.”
People in This Episode
Karoline Saffi: LinkedIn
Transcript
Laurie Ruettimann:
Punk Rock HR is sponsored by Betterworks, the world’s most dynamic organizations rely on better works to accelerate growth by supporting transparent goal setting, enabling continuous performance, and learning from employee insights. Betterworks is on a mission to help HR leaders make work better, discover how they can help you by visiting Betterworks.com today.
Hey everybody, I’m Laurie Ruettimann. Welcome back to Punk Rock HR. My guest today is Karoline Saffi. She’s the Chief People Officer at Mission. On today’s show, Karoline and I talk about the world of human resources, her origin story, what she does for a living, and why she’s passionate and optimistic about the world of work.
I talk to a lot of human resources professionals, and the one thing I appreciate is when someone is honest and candid and really direct about what’s working and what isn’t in the world of work. And Karoline is that. She talks about how people have power, about how companies need to get on the bus and about where the world of work can go if everybody starts working together to embrace change. It’s really a fun conversation. I really enjoyed Karoline, and I don’t know that I say that about many HR leaders.
So if you’re interested in a fun and energetic conversation with a really terrific human resources leader, sit back and enjoy this chat with Karoline Saffi on this week’s Punk Rock HR.
Hey Karoline, welcome to the podcast.
Karoline Saffi:
Happy to be here. Thank you for having me.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, sure. I like to say that every superhero has an origin story, especially HR superheroes. And I know that you’ve got a storied career in this world of work. So why don’t you tell us who you are and what you’re all about?
Karoline Saffi:
Yeah, so I’ve been working in HR for — I haven’t done the math. I don’t know, maybe 15, 20 years. It’s been a long time, and I fell into it. It wasn’t something that I had planned to do over the course of my life. Even out of high school, I was working for one of my parents’ friends. They had an accounting business, and they helped me get connected to this company, and they needed help with payroll. And then that introduced me to this whole world of employment. And then from there, just moved up and just tried different jobs. I’d left working corporate and then came back to it, tried a bunch of different things.
But at the end of the day, I think it really attracted me because I could make a difference in people’s lives. And so that has just organically happened over time, and I’ve been very fortunate to have connected with people who have supported me. Even when I didn’t have a very clear vision of what my career should look like over time, I was fortunate to be connected with people who had that idea and kind of pushed me along the way.
Laurie Ruettimann:
So tell us what you do to earn a paycheck right now. What are you doing?
Karoline Saffi:
Yeah, so right now I lead the people and culture team at Mission Cloud. That includes everything from talent acquisition, talent development and talent experience. So we don’t use a traditional HR wording — just to get away from the sometimes negative connotation, the department that has you fill out forms and fires you. It is just more than that. So we really wanted to focus on what is it that we do and we focus on the experience of the people that we work with and the people that we support, to have a good experience. And this comes at the very beginning when you’re looking for a job to all the way to the end of your time with Mission. And we’re actually very happy about that. Even when people go on to beyond Mission, we think of them as our alums that learned a lot along the way and spread the word about what a good workplace can look like.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Oh, I love that. Well, you said something interesting a moment ago that you’re interested in the human story. You’re interested in helping out, of being of service. And it makes me think, when I started in HR 20 years ago, they used to tell me, “You like people? Go be a teacher. You want to help people out? Go be a real estate agent.” That softer, human side of HR was not in vogue. And we’ve done a 180 in the past two decades, and now we’re like, “Oh yeah, yeah. We like people now.” Do you think this is going to stick?
Karoline Saffi:
It has to stick. It has to stick because people are the ones doing the jobs. And so I think what has changed a lot over the last few decades is technology. And I think that maybe, a few generations ago, it was easier for a person to not know any better, about things that they’re entitled to or better opportunities in other locations. But we have things like the internet and social media, and you can very easily find out. Now we saw — I follow someone on TikTok, the salary transparency. She goes around, asks people, “What do you make?”
I love that. So now people know this is what you can make. New laws are being put into place where we are forced to be transparent. I’ve always tried to be transparent. We haven’t always had the software to make it easy. But it’s always been an open door. You want to know how much you should be getting paid, how much we’re willing to pay for your job, what is the salary range? Let’s talk about it. Let’s help you understand where you fall within the range and why. There’s a lot of things that I think people don’t necessarily know, that they’re entitled to know, that we can help with.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yeah, makes sense. There is this feeling, and we can talk about this, that, “Oh, that’s nice of you to be so pro-people. You’re in tech, you almost have to be.” So first, tell us what Mission Cloud does, and tell me are you forced to people just because the market is making it hard for you right now?
Karoline Saffi:
I get to like people. So our goal is to reinvent the world through cloud services. We are a managed services provider and cloud consulting company. We work with AWS, and we help people accomplish their mission. It’s actually one of our core values, focused on their mission. There’s a lot of different ways that can play out, and we have a lot of different ways where we can support people to do that. I think that’s what’s the cool thing about this. When people think about tech, I think they make it be this unattainable thing, that is like, you will never understand it. And that’s not what it is. It’s in everything that we do every day. It’s in the websites that you use, it’s in the applications on your phone, and it’s all learnable. A lot of people can even learn it on YouTube. So I think we just need to make it a little bit more accessible to people to understand, what are the things that we’re doing and how they can be a part of it, too.
Laurie Ruettimann:
So you’re in this amazing world of tech and I was joking, “The market makes you have to like people.” And actually that’s not true because right now, tech is going through a reckoning of its own and trying to figure out, how do we staff? How do we look to the future, especially with these large language models and generative AI and all that stuff that’s trendy right now? So OK, the tech industry is having this reckoning. What does that mean for all the good stuff that we talked about like wellbeing and diversity, inclusion, equity and belonging?
Karoline Saffi:
Yeah, I think it’s actually an opportunity for us to make a difference. So we have a program which we call our Evolution program, and it’s tied to our cloud literacy commitment. You talked about how do we get people in these roles? We learned that very early on. Our company is a little bit over five years old, so we’re still a baby, but we’re growing very quickly, and that was hard. Sometimes, just getting people to apply for a job is not going to be — It’s not that easy. And so recruiting isn’t the only solution. We also have to build people. And so from an early time, we invested in talent development, and what does that look like? And the cloud literacy commitment to us was a commitment to spread awareness that this is an opportunity, that this is a possibility of a job that you could have. When you are a little kid in school and they ask you what you want to be when you grow up, you’re probably thinking a fireman or a doctor or whatever it might be. There are other options that you may not know.
Laurie Ruettimann:
For sure. Yeah, there’s HR. Come on, join the — (laughing)
Karoline Saffi:
(Laughing) There’s HR, there’s a project management job. There’s a bunch of different things that you could do. There’s a billing analyst. There’s a lot of exciting things that you could be doing that you just don’t know that exist out there. So our commitment was — it’s a little bit more focused around cloud engineering, primarily because that’s the place where it’s a little bit more difficult to find people. So we want there to be more cloud professionals, even if it’s not at Mission. We’re out there sponsoring people to get their certifications, just to come and listen to us talk about the cool things that we do. And then if they are interested, they can join our internship program, they can join our apprenticeship program. And we can get someone from intern to full time in six months internally, through education efforts that we have proven over time, as well as with other partners that we have.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, I was just thinking, so you’ve got this amazing commitment to growing and creating the next generation of cloud engineers. I don’t know that universities know that. So I’ll just tell you: I had a conversation with the interim dean of the humanities department at my alma mater. And she was like, “Yeah, we’re going to graduate all these kids with creative writing degrees,” and they don’t know that they can go into marketing. And she was looking for a solution, and the solution is partnerships. The solution is outreach. The solution is being curious not just about academia, but being curious about the way the world of work works. And I just wonder, why doesn’t that happen more often? Because we need these kids to go into engineering, we need them to go into product marketing, into sales. Not everybody can be a poet, or you can be a poet and do both.
Karoline Saffi:
Yeah, I think it’s starting to get better. That is something that we’re constantly looking to improve, is the number of partners that we have. Some of them are colleges and universities, and we do try to target places that have a high volume of underrepresented demographics of people, because that is something that we also struggle with. There isn’t a lot of diversity in tech that comes naturally. I think it’s something that only happens with intention and when you’re deliberate about the way that you make hiring decisions, or even the people that we put through our evolution program. We just have to try to do this intentionally and deliberately. Otherwise, it’s just not going to happen on its own, unfortunately. I would love by human nature for us to evaluate everybody equally and not have all of these biases. But that’s just not the way it works.
And so I think that’s somewhere where my team and I can help. Even just calling attention to things that people are doing that may not necessarily be inclusive. And also just being open to more communication internally. We have a very open approach to communication within the team, very transparent. And also we take a lot of feedback. So our own employees hold us accountable if they’re seeing something that is going off track, whether it’s a customer that we’re working with, someone that we’re considering taking an investment from or even a policy that we’re putting in place. I think it’s just having that open heart and open mind to see that maybe we could do things a little bit differently or that we’re not considering a certain perspective.
Laurie Ruettimann:
I like the word you used, intentionality, being intentional. And I think, of course, that makes so much sense dring challenging economic times, during a downturn — that’s when the rubber meets the road. Can you continue to be intentional? And I know you can at Mission Cloud. But just in general, the world of HR, can we continue the forward progress— or, even, will we when times are tough and we have to get scrappy?
Karoline Saffi:
Yeah. Well, even at Mission Cloud, it’s hard. I actually met with our values advisory committee. It’s a committee that we have. They’re the protectors of our core values. They serve an advisory function to the senior leadership team. They keep us accountable and honest on anything that is related to our core values and if we’re going off track. And they actually had the same question. They’re like, “Is there a cultural shift? Are we living according to our core values?”
And as we talked about things, all of the things that came up were anxieties over economic downturn. They’re hearing all these layoffs. And it’s distinguishing the stresses of what’s going on in the world versus if we’re making a decision that maybe is not going to be super-favorable. Maybe raises aren’t going to be what we wish they would be at the time that we thought they were going to be. But that is when you lean into your culture and your core values. That’s what they’re for. They’re not just here for the good times. If that was the case, that would be super-easy, and everybody would do it. But it’s through those difficult moments that you can really prove that something is the right thing to do and the right thing to hold dear.
Laurie Ruettimann:
A couple of years ago, God, it was a while ago, I saw a professional speaker on stage offer someone in the room a hundred-dollar bill if they could name their company’s values. And I’d seen them do it a couple of times, and people struggled to do that. So I just wonder, we were just talking about company values. Can you name yours?
Karoline Saffi:
Yeah. So we have “embrace life,” and that is about work-life harmony, because obviously there’s never going to be a perfect balance. This is how we address things like our focus on home, at work, and in the community, how we give back to our community. We have “focused on their mission,” and that is intentionally a little bit like, “Who’s they?” And they are our customers. We like to think of us as mission control for the astronaut. The astronaut that walks on the moon gets all the glory, but they didn’t do it alone. There’s a whole team of experts behind the scenes, and that’s us. So we’re always focused on what our customer’s mission is.
“Be inclusive.” So that is about being inclusive of different people, different perspectives, and fostering a collaborative spirit. We need to work well together. We are a fully distributed team. And so that means that things don’t always happen as naturally as they would if you were in an office. And so you need to be able to work well with others. That’s just a thing that needs to happen if you’re going to work here. “Accountability and action.” So that’s all about building trust. If you say you’re going to do something and you don’t do it, I’m going to feel like I need to be watching you like, “Did she do it? What’s going on? I can’t really trust you.” And so if we are all accountable to the things that we committed to, and we do it with a sense of urgency, it builds a level of trust. And that’s not just with peers, but also with our customers and with our partners.
It’s embrace life … “continuous growth.” So that’s about having a growth mentality. So we strive to always learn more, be better as professionals, as a company. We add new competencies to our roster as a company all the time. We’re always getting new certifications. And we support each other in that journey of having a growth mindset.
And then “strive for excellence,” so that’s the last one. We have six. Strive for excellence is all about having that energy that you have when you kick off a project. You’re very excited, you’re going to conquer the world, you’re going to get it done right. And you’re going to do it excellently. And so we always want to strive for excellence and do better with a can-do attitude.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Oh my god, Karoline, I’m so glad I didn’t give you the hundred-dollar challenge.
Karoline Saffi:
Where’s my money?
Laurie Ruettimann:
I know. It’s on the way. Definitely look for it in the mail. I’m so glad you talked about a growth mindset because we talked about the program to really encourage cloud engineers. But a growth mindset is for everybody. And I know during the pandemic, we talked a lot about upskilling, new skilling, reskilling, and we don’t really talk about that anymore. But man, learning is at the core of everything. If you’re not learning, you’re not growing. It’s real important to thrive in this world. So tell me about your commitment to upskilling and to really making sure that people are always striving to learn at Mission Cloud.
Karoline Saffi:
Yeah. Well, we never stop talking about it. We talk about it all the time. And not just with cloud engineering. We have our leadership badge program. Some people find a passion for leading others, and so we support that, for sure, and have a structured program around that to support people that are interested in doing that. And sometimes, people will join the leadership badge program and find it’s not for them, and that’s cool, too. Sometimes it’s a different path that we have to take, and we support that. I think people aren’t always given the freedom to think that they can change their mind. And I think we should all be free to change our mind and not be dinged for it, like, “If you’re not going to succeed in this, you’re in or you’re out.” I think it’s like, “Cool, let’s find the right seat for the right person.”
Laurie Ruettimann:
Absolutely. Well, I like this idea, too, that we can embrace failure, and if it’s in an environment where people are supportive and striving for excellence, is it even really failure, or are you just pivoting? It’s not that big of a deal. So I love that idea, that you can learn, you can grow, and you can change your mind. Have you changed your mind on something, Karoline, lately? I’m curious about that.
Karoline Saffi:
Yeah, I keep telling myself that this isn’t permanent in the sense of I’m not locked down to this. I’ve always been fascinated by humans and history and why we do the things that we do. And for a while, I thought maybe I would be, I don’t know, an archeologist or something cool where I could just learn more about the past and how that influences us today. But then I’m here. Next year, maybe I’ll be doing something else.
Laurie Ruettimann:
I just meant have you changed your mind on any trends or issues, but I like that you want to be an archeologist. That’s amazing. I think that’s super-fun.
Karoline Saffi:
I change my mind all the time. In fact, I challenge people to change my mind all the time. I may have something that I believe is the right way to do it, and I may have the evidence that is leading me to believe that. But I’m always open to having a conversation or even a debate about why a different way might be right. And I’ve been known to have my mind changed, and I think we should all be that way.
Laurie Ruettimann:
I think about my own trajectory in human resources, and I don’t think I had enough leaders who were willing to do that. Did you have a leader who made it OK for you to do that or that you’re modeling? Or are you doing it in spite? Because I do plenty of things. I wish I would’ve had somebody to tell me it was OK to fail. And so I’m really big on embracing failure. So I wonder maybe if that’s why you’ve changed your mind.
Karoline Saffi:
I do it because I want people to let me do it. I’ll give you an example. Someone on my team wanted to implement some software. She did all her due diligence. She figured out, “This is it.” Everyone says this is the best thing. We got into it. It wasn’t cheap, and it took a very long time to implement. And then once we had it implemented, we found that in practice, it just was not friendly from an administrative perspective, and it was causing more headaches than it was helping.
I think for a while, she felt like, “This has to work” — that “I suggested this and we’ll lose all this money. What will happen if this doesn’t work out?” And I told her, “If it doesn’t work out, let’s just do something else.” There’s no reason to keep doing something just because either we committed to it or because everyone else said it’s the best. Maybe it’s the best for them, but it’s not the best for us. Let’s do it our own way. She was super-happy because she was like, “Oh my gosh, I thought you’re going to fire me or something.”
I tried to think of that, and I’ve felt that before where people tell me, “You better make it work.” And it’s like, “If it’s not going to work, it’s not going to work.” Let’s just be up front with it. Why stay in this relationship with this piece of software that is not working more than we need to be? So I don’t know.
Laurie Ruettimann:
That is such a good example. And also now I want to know the software.
Karoline Saffi:
Oh my gosh, no. I’ll tell you from private.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Oh my gosh, these are the real HR secrets here on Punk Rock HR. I love it. Well, as we start to wrap up the conversation, I wonder where you see the HR industry going. Are you optimistic? Are you encouraging young professionals to go into human resources? Or are you like, “Well, we got some work to do”?
Karoline Saffi:
Yeah, no, I definitely mentor some people. I’m part of different HR groups. I think it’s good to talk to other people that are in the industry because you feed off each other and you learn the things that are possible. Sometimes you didn’t even know that something was possible. I think that even though there are difficulties, even like what is happening in tech right now, I think we can’t go backwards. So fostering continuous growth, even beyond Mission Cloud, is going to be something that you just can’t put the genie back in the bottle.
I think a focus on mental health and wellness and just accepting the fact that we spend a very large part of our day at work and therefore, work needs to take that into consideration. How flexibility — in the fact that, if we want more women in the workforce, we need to be more flexible, especially with mothers and people who need time to be able to go and do that “embrace life” thing, where sometimes you just need to step away and focus on home, and then sometimes you’ll be back.
And just rethink the job. Does the job need to look like how it looked before, or can it look a little bit different? Can it happen at different times? Does it have to be one full job? Can it be broken up into different pieces? I think having that flexibility is something that everyone is going to be forced to do. I think employees have power, and they should know that. And people change sometimes when they’re forced to change. And if employees don’t put up with situations that are not beneficial, eventually, employers are forced to change. It may not be right away, but at least a dialogue can begin.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, I’m so excited that you are on the podcast today. What a fun and energetic conversation. Very optimistic about human resources. I’m so thrilled about that. It balances out my cynicism, so thank you for that. If people want to connect with you, where should we send them?
Karoline Saffi:
The best place would be LinkedIn.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yeah? Are you a big LinkedIn fan?
Karoline Saffi:
I’m on there regularly, and I post very regularly.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Good. Well, we’ll see you on LinkedIn. We’ll make sure to include it in the show notes. And I want to thank you again for being a guest today on Punk Rock HR.
Karoline Saffi:
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Laurie Ruettimann:
If you’re interested in learning more about today’s show, you can visit punkrockHR.com. There you’ll find show notes, links, resources, and all the good stuff. Now that’s all for today. Thanks for joining us, sharing this episode and leaving thoughtful comments on Instagram and LinkedIn. We appreciate your support, this and every week, on Punk Rock HR.
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