Welcome to this bonus episode of Punk Rock HR. My guest today is world-renowned expert on health and human performance Steve Magness. Steve’s books include “Peak Performance,” “The Passion Paradox,” “The Science of Running” and the new bestseller “Do Hard Things: Why We Get Resilience Wrong and the Surprising Science of Real Toughness.” His work has also appeared in Sports Illustrated, Wired, Outside, New York magazine and Forbes.
From his experience as a running and performance coach, Steve applies his knowledge to everything in life, including the world of work. While he’s still coaching runners, Steve also takes the physical and mental skills that people develop while running and helps executives, entrepreneurs, physicians and others to level up their lives.
Not only that, but Steve’s new book has been endorsed by a trifecta of management nerds — Malcolm Gladwell, Cal Newport and Adam Grant have deemed it a must-read. This conversation is one that everyone will benefit from, no matter their profession.
Punk Rock HR is proudly underwritten by The Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is a B2B marketing agency for innovative brands creating the future of workplace solutions. For more information, head over to thestarrconspiracy.com.
Stress + Rest = Growth
Steve has been a running coach for years and could probably do that for the rest of his life. But instead of just focusing on athletic performance, Steve wanted to expand his scope.
He realized that he could help a wider group of people who often don’t receive the support they need. Athletes are used to coaching, but the rest of us aren’t used to that form of support.
“My goal has always been to kind of do interesting things and take on interesting challenges,” Steve says. And he already has expertise on the subject of running. “So in my kind of evolution as a person, it was the kind of logical next step of ‘well, can I apply this in a different realm and help people improve and get better?’”
Through this evolution, he has emphasized a formula that works with his running clients and facilitates healthy growth.
“I call it ‘stress plus rest equals growth.’ Which is, essentially, we need to apply the appropriate amount of stress, which is doing the work, doing the actual workouts, getting the runs in or whatever challenge it is,” he says. “And then couple that with the appropriate amount of rest in recovery. And if you do those and have the right balance there, then you’re going to adapt and grow. And what often happens is we just simply mess up that balance.”
A Mindset for Everyone
Steve and I first connected as a coach and runner, and one thing that surprised me about Steve’s work was that I knew very little about the importance of eating and sleeping. And what I knew before coaching was drastically different from what I thought I needed. For athletes, eating and sleeping are priorities, but many nonathletes tend to bypass their importance.
These areas have a significant impact on our personal and professional lives. Steve explains, “Sleeping and eating are two of the most important parts; they’re vital to us, and eating is the fuel that propels the work that you’re doing. So if we don’t have the right nutritional background behind us, then we’re going to be tired, fatigued, low on energy, all of that good stuff, because the nutrition supports our energy.”
Fatigue and low energy aren’t just physical; they’re also psychological.
“From a mental or psychological standpoint, sleep is when our brain makes sense of and stores the things that we learned and worked on during the day,” Steve shares. “So if we don’t sleep, we’re essentially saying, ‘Hey, all that work that you did, like forget about it. We don’t need to take advantage or adapt and grow from it. We’ll just forget it.’ So, I think that sleep component is vital.”
Do Hard Things With the Right Tools
I don’t know about anyone else, but I’m filled up to capacity for anxiety. There’s already enough to worry about in today’s world, and Steve’s new book couldn’t have come at a better time.
Right now, we need people rested, restored and well-nourished so they have the cognitive abilities to do the hard things and make the hard decisions we need to make in this world. Whether at work or in personal relationships, people need to be properly fueled to go the extra mile or restore balance in their lives. Steve’s book looks to reshape how we think about the concept “do hard things.”
“We think it means like, oh, put our head down, grid our way through, just push through, ignore all the pain, all that stuff,” he explains. “But what in reality it means is, put yourself in a position where you can thrive and succeed. And that could mean from nutrition. It could mean from recovery. It could mean from your environment being supportive so that you can take challenges and take risks based on wanting to do the thing, versus being afraid or fearful.”
This book is also for people struggling to find the confidence to face those challenging situations. Instead of avoiding or “defaulting towards taking the easy path,” this book can help people who are ready to push past their fears.
“It’s about how to navigate those things,” Steve says. “Not through putting your head down, but creating both the internal and external environment that gives you the tools to be able to take on the challenges of life that inevitably we all face.”
[bctt tweet=”‘We need to apply the appropriate amount of stress, which is doing the work, doing the actual workouts, getting the runs in or whatever challenge it is. And then couple that with the appropriate amount of rest in recovery.’ ~ @stevemagness. Tune in!” via=”no”]
People in This Episode
- Steve Magness: Website, LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, “Do Hard Things” book
Full Transcript
Laurie Ruettimann:
This episode of Punk Rock HR is sponsored by the Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is the B2B marketing agency for innovative brands creating the future of workplace solutions for more information, head on over to thestarrconspiracy.com.
Hey everybody. I’m Laurie Ruettimann. Welcome back to a bonus episode of Punk Rock HR. My guest today is a world-renowned expert on health and human performance. His name is Steve Magness and he’s the co-author of the bestselling book “Peak Performance” and “The Passion Paradox” and the author of “The Science of Running.” His work has appeared in Sports Illustrated, Wired, Outside, New York magazine and Forbes. And he’s the author of a new bestselling book. “Do Hard Things: Why We Get Resilience Wrong and the Surprising Science of Real Toughness.”
You’re going to want to listen to this conversation because Steve takes his experience, as both a running coach and a performance coach, and he applies it to just about everything, including the world of work. Not only that, this book has been endorsed by the trifecta of management nerds. That’s right — Malcolm Gladwell, Cal Newport and Adam Grant have all said that this book is a must-read. And you know, if it’s good enough for Adam Grant, it’s good enough for you.
So this summer, while you’re trying to have a hot girl summer and look great by the beach, maybe you want to shed all of that, but pick up “Do Hard Things” by Steve Magness. That’s what we’re talking about on this bonus episode of Punk Rock HR.
Hey Steve, welcome to the podcast.
Steve Magness:
Oh, thanks so much for having me.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Oh, I’m so pleased. You’re here. It’s amazing. I’m a longtime fan. This is like a delight for me. And we’re here to talk about your new book, “Do Hard Things,” but before we get started, why don’t you tell everybody who you are and what you’re all about?
Steve Magness:
Yeah. So my name is Steve Magness. I’m an author, writer and performance coach who just helps people in whatever way I can.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, that’s a big umbrella. Like what does “performance coach” mean? And I know a lot of people out there hear that, and they may think life coach or coach, coach, like you’re helping people run a faster mile. So what does performance coach mean?
Steve Magness:
So, that’s a good question. And I do a bit of everything. So my background is actually specifically in coaching runners, which I still do to a large degree, but I also try to take those skills and those mental skills that we develop in running and help executive, entrepreneurs, physicians — basically anybody looking to up their game — and try to help them do that.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well a lot of people say they’re willing to up their game or they’re looking to up their game, but I’ve done a little coaching in my past. And I know that a lot of people think they could buy a program and not do the work. So what’s the work like under your program? If you’re a professional looking to really understand how elite athletes work, what do you have them do?
Steve Magness:
It starts with a kind of self-assessment. So where are you at? And that’s in a couple of big buckets. That could be in terms of your life, your movement, your balance of stress and recovery, your sleep, nutrition, all of those big things. Because I look at performance holistically. It’s not just, “Hey, I’m trying to be a physician or doctor or painter or whatever.” It’s, all these things in your life need to kind of be aligned and taken care of, just like we would in an athletic sense. I wouldn’t say, “Hey, go do some workout, but then totally neglect your nutrition and recovery.” We’ve got to look at all of it. So I try to bring that to the table.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, why do you do what you do? I mean, you said you were a coach, right. A running coach, and you could do that for the rest of your life. Like, there’s plenty of work out there. Right? So what is it that made you decide, “I want to take a broader look at performance”?
Steve Magness:
I think it’s because I realized that I could help people who often don’t get the support they need. In athletics, we’re used to having coaches. It’s a given, everybody says, “oh, I want to get better, I hire a coach.” In the broader world. We’re not used to it. So my goal has always been to kind of do interesting things and take on interesting challenges. And, to some degree in running, I kind of have a level of mastery over — I know how to get people faster or how to help people run a marathon and do all those things. So in my kind of evolution as a person, it was the kind of logical next step of “well, can I apply this in a different realm and help people improve and get better?”
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, I first came to your work as a runner, and I was super-pleased to have found it because I was chronically underweight, undernourished, overtired. As a speaker and a writer, I was out traveling across the world and then trying to run these insane races and not really having the power and the fuel to do it, or injuring myself in the process. So a friend of mine turned me onto your work with one of your colleagues, and you’ve written a bunch of books and articles, and you’re just so prolific in the world of athleticism. And you’ve got a formula around really how to improve from where you are. Can you talk about that formula?
Steve Magness:
Yeah, sure. I call it “stress plus rest equals growth,” which is, essentially, we need to apply the appropriate amount of stress, which is doing the work, doing the actual workouts, getting the runs in or whatever challenge it is. And then couple that with the appropriate amount of rest in recovery. And if you do those and have the right balance there, then you’re going to adapt and grow. And what often happens is we just simply mess up that balance. And for people like you and I, who are pushers and trying to do a bunch of things at once, it’s often that like rest-recovery-restore, that we kind of neglect and put off to the side and think like, “oh, I’ll be OK. I’ll just keep pushing ahead.” But like you said, it kind of can bite us and get in the way
Laurie Ruettimann:
You know, one of the things I was really surprised about myself in coming to your work is how little I knew about how much I needed to eat and sleep. Like, what I thought I knew was so grossly different from what I actually needed. So can you talk to me about that and how that translates to the average nonathletic person? Right. Because I think so many of us are walking around with a set of assumptions around what we need to perform. And I don’t know, I was wrong.
Steve Magness:
Yeah. Sleeping and eating are two of the most important parts; they’re vital to us, and eating is the fuel that propels the work that you’re doing. So if we don’t have the right nutritional background behind us, then we’re going to be tired, fatigued, low on energy, all of that good stuff, because the nutrition supports our energy. But it also is the building blocks for building muscle and all that good stuff. So I like to keep it very simple. It’s eat real foods, make sure you’re fueling enough and doing the basic things.
And then the sleep, which is neglected so much in our world, because we think like, “Oh, the more hours of work we can put in the better we can get.” So what tends to go? Well, sleep — “I’ll get fewer hours” — but sleep is where we learn and grow. So from a physical standpoint, we have the largest amount of growth hormones and testosterone, all these things that we need for muscles to repair and get better and stronger.
And then from a mental or psychological standpoint, sleep is when our brain makes sense of, and stores the things that we learned and worked on during the day. So if we don’t sleep, we’re essentially saying, “Hey, all that work that you did, like forget about it. We don’t need to take advantage or adapt and grow from it. We’ll just forget it.” So I think that sleep component is vital. So again, I like to keep it simple and say, if you can get seven to nine hours of sleep a night, you’re going to be in a good spot. There’s a lot of individual variability about it, but basically, can you fall asleep? And then when do you wake up without an alarm? And that will give you a good idea on how much you need.
Laurie Ruettimann:
I love that you’re talking about waking up without an alarm because I work in this industry of work and technology where wearables and wellbeing are so trendy right now, right? Whether it’s Cove or Whoop or Fitbit or Garmin, pick whatever it is, everybody wants data, especially around sleep. And can you talk to me a little bit about technology in the intersection of sleep?
Steve Magness:
Yeah. So it’s very interesting because in the last couple years now, we can track everything. And I think what happens is people think, “Oh, data, great! Let’s go all in, and I’ll see stuff.” Data by itself is meaningless. It only matters if it leads to productive action. And what often happens when we get kind of crazy on the data is, instead of helping us, it gets in the way. And in sleep, particularly, that I see this with clients all the time, is they start tracking the data. They say, “Oh, I’m only getting, let’s say five hours of sleep.” And what it does is it creates anxiety around it because you’re sitting there and your watch is telling you, or your ring is telling you, that you’re not recovered. You’re not getting good sleep. And what does that do? It creates this anxiety of like, “oh, I need to do this. I need to do this.”
So you go try and fall asleep and you can’t because you know that you’re supposed to. So for a lot of people, I say, “Hey, you got to — data can be fine. It can be great. But is it helping you or hindering you?” And often, it’s hindering people because it creates this anxiety of like, “Oh, I’m not doing the thing.”
And there’s actually some fascinating research behind this that shows that sleep anxiety is one of the fastest-growing problems we have because everybody’s now tracking it. And everybody’s now freaking out because their tracker’s telling them they’re not getting the sleep they need.
Laurie Ruettimann:
I don’t know about you, but I don’t need any more anxiety, let alone sleep anxiety. There’s plenty of stuff happening in the world. And that’s why I’m so glad you wrote the book “Do Hard Things,” because this book couldn’t come at a better time. We need people rested, restored, well-nourished to have the cognitive abilities, to do the hard things, to make the hard decisions that we need to make in the world. Whether it’s in the world of work, the world of politics and government, or just in our individual relationships, we need people fueled properly to go that extra mile or to just restore some balance in their own lives. But that’s just me fangirling about your book. Why don’t you tell us a little bit more about “Do Hard Things” and maybe who’s it for.
Steve Magness:
Yeah, no, I love that intro actually. That was brilliant, because that kind of gets at one of the central components of the book, which is often when we think of, OK, what does “do hard things” mean? We think it means like, oh, put our head down, grid our way through, just push through, ignore all the pain, all that stuff. But what in reality it means is put yourself in a position where you can thrive and succeed. And that could mean from nutrition. It could mean from recovery. It could mean from your environment being supportive so that you can take challenges and take risks based on wanting to do the thing versus being afraid or fearful.
So, when I look at “what is this book about?” to me, it is for anyone who’s looking at, “Hey, I’m struggling with this challenge. I might not have the confidence. I might have some imposter syndrome. I might feel like I’m always defaulting towards taking the easy path and like stepping away or avoiding difficult things.” That’s who this book is written for. It’s about how to navigate those things. Not through putting your head down, but like creating both the internal and external environment that gives you the tools to be able to take on the challenges of life that inevitably we all face.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, why don’t you tell us a really important story from the book that you think encapsulates some of that messaging or just a story that you want us to hear that kind of gives us a flavor. Some jeuje from the book.
Steve Magness:
Oh man. There’s so many good stories that I got to report out. One of my favorite is actually from a former athlete of mine, who I coached in college named Drevan Anderson-Kappa. And Drevan went from being an athletic superstar in college. He was a conference champ and did all sorts of great things in running. And then he went into the military after he graduated. And the stories that he told me were fascinating, because we all have this particular conception of what it means to be tough and what it means to be in the military and try out for special forces and all those good things.
And what he told me was pretty simple. I was like, Drevan, OK. You’ve been an elite athlete. You’ve been in the military, like what matters? And he said two things. One, is that people think you need this bravado and this huge confidence behind you and that’s what does things, but it’s really about humility. Because if you approach life’s challenges with this humbleness, then you’re going to be focused and ready to take on whatever it comes at you. Because you don’t walk in thinking, “Oh, I’ve got this. This is a piece of cake. This is easy,” and then you’re not prepared. Humble confidence, almost as quiet confidence, means, “Hey, this is going to be really difficult. This challenge is going to be tough, but I can navigate it.”
So, that was number one. And then the other thing that I was really important that he told me is, when you’re dropped in the middle of the woods and told to survive, it’s not that bravado or the people who put on an outward face of confidence that are able to succeed. It’s that people have a real inner confidence. And that inner confidence comes from knowing that you are prepared and that you have done the work.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well. I mean, my goodness, I don’t want to be dropped in the woods in the middle of nowhere, but I like the sound of that. You know, there’s a theme in your writing around overcoming some of these traditionally masculine assumptions that we make around performance. And not that we’re so binary and things are masculine, feminine, man, woman, but there is this kind of bro culture around performance that you’re constantly needling at and being a very thoughtful contrarian around. I mean, does that come from your early experience in athleticism? Just being surrounded by all of those dudes who push, push, push.
Steve Magness:
I’m so glad you asked me this question, because no one has before, and you’re spot on. There is that. And I think yes, part of it comes from growing up in the athletic culture and seeing kind of the models that you’re given, and then stepping back from a performance side as a runner, a very high-level runner and thinking, hey, these things that I’ve told often around this masculine culture, such as don’t show any emotions, like there’s no crying in sports, all those things, they weren’t really real, and they didn’t help my performance.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yeah. I believe that.
Steve Magness:
Seeing that stuff, I think, helps push against that. And then the other part is early in my career, especially, is I spent a lot of time coaching, primarily women in running, and seeing their approach to tackling extremely difficult races or the pain around it, I think was a little refreshing. Because they often came at it without this baggage that males do, in the sense that they were like, “Hey, I’m just trying to navigate this pain in discomfort. I’m not trying to look a certain way or appeal to certain people. I’m trying to navigate this stuff so that I can perform up to my potential and my capabilities”. And I think there’s something, again, very refreshing about that I’ve tried to kind of encapsulate and hold onto.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yeah. I definitely feel it. I see it. I encounter it in your work. And you know, as you were talking, I was thinking about the woman who’s listening to the podcast who maybe has dealt with caregiving issues for the past two-and-a-half years, as she keeps hearing about the Great Resignation and is looking for that amazing job. But it’s so hard to quit what you know and take a risk on the unknown. So what in the book could help her navigate through that decision of looking for work elsewhere and making the best decision for her.
Steve Magness:
Yeah. And this is what it really comes down to for toughness, right? Toughness is not the stuff we think it is. It is that decision where you are being pulled two ways, where you look to your left and you’ve got the kind of easy decision what I would call, which is like the familiar.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yeah. The status quo, right?
Steve Magness:
The status quo. And you look to your right and it’s just like, “Oh, this is this difficult thing that is very intriguing. But gosh, it takes a lot of inertia to get over that” So in the book, what I try to kind of divide out is whenever you’re in those places, you’re going to have a particular sequence. It is, you’re going to experience all these feelings and emotions that will push and pull you in some different way. You’re going to have this inner dialogue, which is almost like this angel and devil on your shoulder pulling and pushing you in one way. And then you’re going to have that urge to act, which is to make a decision either way.
And what research and experience shows us is, that if we can understand those three different things and why we’re getting pulled in any either different way, and then understand the language maybe of our feelings and emotions, then we can take wise action, which is saying, “Hey, I understand why I’m getting pulled to stay at home and do the same thing. I understand why this big scary thing of taking another decision is the way it is.” And if you understand it, then you can navigate it.
And that’s all it is, because no one can predict the future and tell you, “Hey, this is the right decision, or this is the wrong decision.” But if you can sit with all those feelings, emotions, thoughts, then you’re in a much better place because you’re almost responding instead of reacting.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, that’s the ultimate goal in this world, whether it’s personally or professionally, right? To stop reacting and take a more proactive role in your own life and to be present for this amazing experience that you could have. I think so many people are just right now overwhelmed by social media and bad news and everything that’s being thrown at us. And it almost feels like you can’t make any good decisions.
So I love some of the evidence-based research that you’re providing in the book around decision making. But you must understand the feeling of just total and complete, I don’t know, sluggishness, because of social media. In fact, I think you write about social media a lot. Like that’s what I’ve seen as a theme in your work. Am I wrong?
Steve Magness:
No, you’re spot on. And I think it’s one of the challenges that our current generation, we face, that no one else did. And it puts a burden on us because it almost makes us encapsulate a delusional reality. And what does that delusional reality do? It creates unrealistic expectations if you’re sitting there and you’re looking at all your friends and all these people, and it looks like they’re having a great life and everything is perfect — that shapes your lens. So it’s only natural for you to say, “ugh,” kind of like, “what’s the point, I’m not doing these amazing things or what have you,” which puts you in that state of where you’re just kind of apathetic. So I think that’s normal.
And what I’m trying to get back at is one of the key pillars that I say of toughness — is embracing reality, not the facade, which is, what’s the facade? The facade is social media. We need to come back to, OK, how do we do that? One is acknowledging it. But the second part is doing real things in the real world, having real relationships and friendships in the real world, because that gives us our brain, almost something else to judge reality on that is actually real. So it’ll sit there and be like, “Hey —
Laurie Ruettimann:
The default. Yeah.
Steve Magness:
Exactly. It’s the default. But now we have to actively do and put ourselves in that position in order to give our brain something that’s useful.
Laurie Ruettimann:
But you know, it’s been so difficult over the past two-and-a-half years to have those in real life experiences. And I found for me, the one thing I’ve had to do is actually actively make a choice to disengage from certain social media platforms or to stop following individuals because, intellectually, I know comparison is the thief of joy, but then I start running and I’m like, “Oh, look at her. She’s faster, she looks better or whatever.” And I’m like, it’s on me, it’s on me to engage in reality. This person can live that amazing life in real life or on social media. But I need to extricate myself from that. So it seems so extreme though, but I’ve had to physically uninstall apps, right. Or get off the internet completely. I don’t know. What do you do? How do you not look at the playing field out there of performance coaches and be like, what the hell?
Steve Magness:
You know, I’ll be honest. Like that’s the natural human thing to do. We all face this problem. So I think again, embrace reality, which means, accept that it’s an issue and a problem. So what do I do? It’s hard. I mean, part of my work is being online.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Oh, for sure. Yeah.
Steve Magness:
You know, like whenever you write —
Laurie Ruettimann:
It’s your job.
Steve Magness:
Yeah. It’s my job. So what I have to do is set up safeguards. So I took Twitter, Instagram, all those off my phone, so that if I want to look at that stuff, I have to actively choose to, by opening my computer, signing into the website, all that stuff, just that little barrier for entry, it helps so much. And the other thing that I try to do, and I write this down all the time, is I try to be intentional on why I’m using social media. So to your point, I’m very ruthless on who I follow and who I don’t, because if I’m using social media for consuming information, I want it to be quality information. And then the other part of social media that I try to stick to is I say, “I am using this to convey and spread a positive message to help other people.” I try my hardest to stay on that brand and not get caught up in the, “Oh, there’s a shiny object that I could tweet about. Or like, start an online fight because that’s how I’ll get followers and blow up.”
Laurie Ruettimann:
Wait, you’re in the middle of a book tour now. And I think that pressure is so interesting because you’re a publisher and you know, everybody around you has goals for you, and maybe you even have goals for yourself, right? But I like the distinction you’re making between intention and goal. Like, you set an intention for yourself in how you’re going to engage with these platforms, and you have your goals out there. And if you almost stick to your intention, you’re going to get to those goals, anyway. Am I hearing you correctly?
Steve Magness:
You’re spot on. I’m a big believer of, you can have goals. That’s great. Then set them aside because you’ve got to do the steps to get them done. And that’s what I’m all about because I could drive myself nuts. You know, I could drive myself nuts in running saying, “I want to run in X time,” or in writing, I could drive myself nuts saying, “I need to sell so many books.” That doesn’t do me any good. What does me good is saying, “OK, what do I need to do? What are the steps I need to take? What am I trying to accomplish here?” And then just doing those steps.
So when my publisher or whoever, who I’m sure will listen to this, is saying, like, “Hey, you need to tweet more or post more on this,” I’m just like, nope, these are the steps. These are how I’m handling it. This is how we agreed to do these things. I’m going to execute on this to the best of my ability, and whatever happens, it’ll turn out how it should.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Amazing. Amazing. Well, if people want to learn more about you and your work, especially around performance coaching, or if they want to learn how to be a better runner, like I’m trying to always be right. Where do they go on the internet to find you?
Steve Magness:
Yeah. So on any social media site, Twitter, Instagram, all those at Steve Magness, I have a website, stevemagness.com. And then I do a weekly newsletter through The Growth Equation, which is thegrowtheq.com, which you can sign up and get all sorts of tips and tricks and all that good stuff.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Awesome. We’ll put all of that in the show notes, and it was a real pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Thanks for being a guest.
Steve Magness:
Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. I really enjoy your work. So I appreciate you letting me come on and chat.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Oh God. Anytime let’s come on next time and just talk about running. OK.
Steve Magness:
You got it. That’s the easy step, I could do that all day.
Laurie Ruettimann:
I mean, everybody wants free coaching, right? So let me just jump on that bandwagon. Well again, thanks again. And we’ll see you next time.
Hey everybody, I hope you enjoyed this episode of Punk Rock HR. We are proudly underwritten by The Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is the B2B marketing agency for innovative brands creating the future of workplace solutions for more information, head on over to thestarrconspiracy.com. Punk Rock HR is produced and edited by Rep Cap with special help from Michael Thibodeaux and Devon McGrath. For more information, show notes, links, and resources, head on over to punkrockhr.com. Now that’s all for today and I hope you enjoyed it. We’ll see you next time on Punk Rock HR.
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