My guest today is Gregory Ng. He is a longtime friend and the CEO of Brooks Bell, a digital agency based in the Triangle region of North Carolina. In this episode, we’re talking about the pandemic and its impact on people, how to truly build a people-first organization and how to think differently about work-from-home culture.
One of the cool things about Greg is that, as a CEO, he has numerous opportunities to make and change policy. He’s been thinking a lot about how to bring people together in this weird hybrid environment and wrote about it on LinkedIn. And it was that LinkedIn post that prompted me to invite him to this episode.
Greg is a lifelong learner who loves to help his community make a positive impact in the world. I can say firsthand that this is true.
Greg considers himself a marketer, among other things, and believes everyone has marketing within them. “I’m a designer, I’m a content creator, I’m a marketer, I’m a business person. But we’re really all, in my opinion, in the business of understanding each other and understanding better ways to communicate.”
Punk Rock HR is proudly underwritten by The Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is a B2B marketing agency for innovative brands creating the future of workplace solutions. For more information, head over to thestarrconspiracy.com.
What Does Moving Forward Look Like?
2022 for many companies feels like they want to return to before the pandemic, to 2019 — as if people were on an extended vacation and now it’s time for real work to resume. But that’s simply not the case.
Right now, the focus is about reopening offices, and while Greg and his team are getting the band back together, it’s not a strict return-to-office policy. Greg has office space, but he’s also not setting a traditional return-to-office policy, and with good reason.
“For the rest of my life, what happened during 2020, ’21, early ’22, continuing, will make its mark on the way I am as a human being. I can’t just forget the last two years and say, “Let’s go back to 2019,” and companies shouldn’t either,” he shares.
When you look at companies pushing for people to come back to the office, it’s less about culture but about financial need. It’s about utilizing the office leases they can’t get out of rather than considering people’s wellbeing.
“Those decisions come from a place of distrust and rooted strictly on bottom line. Here’s the reality. We’re paying our lease. We’re paying for empty cubes and seats. We just renewed our lease, by the way,” Greg says. “And the reason why is because I believe that there is a reason to have a physical space for people to gather. I also believe that we can be very efficient, collaborative and build a new type of culture with team members that are in person together and not in person together.”
Bringing People Together Remotely
Greg’s evolution as a CEO is inspiring. He’s taken a creative approach to building community through collaboration and realizing that connection comes in many forms.
“We’ve made a commitment to fly all of our remote employees and bring in all our team together quarterly,” he explains. These quarterly gatherings are optional, however, for remote and local employees.
Before the pandemic, Brooks Bell had one remote employee. But now, almost a third of the company is working remotely. Greg went through a process of trying to understand how he could make these remote employees could feel a part of their culture. One approach Brooks Bell uses is “magnet activities,” and I was curious what those are.
“Magnet activities are activities that attract people to want to come and participate, knowing full well that it’s optional than to say, ‘You must come.’ So, that’s the first thing, flying everyone quarterly to meet as a team,” Greg explains. “And there’s many different layers to that, too. There are absolutely very important meetings and information that we’re sharing together, but there’s also time to socialize and not just do work, but just exist and form bonds.”
Budgeting for Collaboration
Greg understands that getting people together is great, but “work also takes other shapes and forms.” It’s about understanding how to do that with remote employees in various locations.
“We’ve built a budget for each one of our remote employees, a $5,000 travel budget per year, that they can use whenever they want for wherever they want, as long as they’re using it to visit or collaborate with another team member,” he says.
The positive response has been great. Greg’s excitement for this creative approach has grown, especially with the positive reception with employees and outside the company. But these policies are just the start of a larger cultural shift.
“Our culture is not about our core team at Raleigh headquarters and then everyone else, nor is it about each person individually. It really is about us collectively as a whole,” Greg says. “So how do I ensure that the playing field gets leveled a little bit? That’s one way to start, and much more to come.”
[bctt tweet=”‘For the rest of my life, what happened during 2020, ’21, early ’22, continuing, will make its mark on the way I am as a human being.’ ~ @GregoryNg, CEO at Brooks Bell. Tune in to the latest episode of #PunkRockHR!” via=”no”]
People in This Episode
- Greg Ng: LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, Brooks Bell website
Full Transcript
Laurie Ruettimann:
This episode of Punk Rock HR is sponsored by the Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is the B2B marketing agency for innovative brands creating the future of workplace solutions. For more information, head on over to thestarrconspiracy.com.
Hey everybody, I’m Laurie Ruettimann. Welcome back to Punk Rock HR. My guest today is Greg Ng. He’s a longtime friend and the CEO of Brooks Bell. They’re a digital agency based here in the Triangle of North Carolina. And on today’s podcast, we’re talking all about the pandemic, the impact on people and how to truly build a people-first organization.
The cool thing about Greg is that, as a CEO, he has all kinds of opportunities to really make and change policy, and he’s been thinking a lot about how to bring people together in this weird hybrid environment. He’s written about it on LinkedIn, and that’s what prompted me to invite him on today’s show. So if you’re interested in creative ways to get people to collaborate, new ways to think about working from home and what it’s like to just manage and navigate through this crazy time, well, sit back and enjoy this conversation with Greg Ng on this week’s Punk Rock HR.
Hey Greg, welcome to the podcast.
Greg Ng:
Thanks for having me.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Oh, so good. Listen, it’s been a decade or more since I’ve seen you in real life, and we live in the same dang area. What is up with that?
Greg Ng:
It’s crazy. It’s crazy. But that’s the power of social media, and it’s the power of shared connections. So, I feel like we haven’t been in the same room, but I feel like I still know you.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, at some point, we must have crossed like at the Shake Shack or at the mall or something, and we just didn’t notice one another. This town is too small. So for those people out there who don’t know who the heck you are, even though I’m fangirling all over you, why don’t you tell everybody who you are and what you’re all about?
Greg Ng:
Sure. My name is Greg Ng. I’m the CEO of Brooks Bell. We are a consultancy here in Raleigh, North Carolina. I am a lifelong learner, dad, traveler, amateur photographer, and I just love being a part of a great community here in North Carolina and hopefully inspiring others to do what I believe is a very important thing, which is to make a positive impact in the world. So, that’s what I live for.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, all of that I can say firsthand is true. We met through the community, a community of marketers, which is that really your primary domain? Would you call yourself a marketer?
Greg Ng:
I would call myself a marketer. I believe marketing is really in everyone. I’m a designer, I’m a content creator, I’m a marketer, I’m a businessperson. But we’re really all, in my opinion, in the business of understanding each other and understanding better ways to communicate. So for that reason, yes, marketer.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, in this community of creative professionals, of entrepreneurs, of just free spirits, we connected through volunteerism. You were very passionate about Movember. Can you tell everybody what that is?
Greg Ng:
Yeah. Movember is a great cause that concentrates on men’s health. It was an organization that was started many, many years ago. And when we first met, I was trying to kick off the local community here in the Raleigh-Durham area. The key is men grow facial hair in the month of November to raise awareness.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, they try. They try.
Greg Ng:
They try. I’m one of those people that tried. Super-awkward-looking, but awkward for a reason. It’s a great topic-starter and one that’s important to raise awareness for health reasons.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, back then I barely knew you and you were like, “Come on, let’s do this telethon. Join me for an hour.” I’m going to livestream it to all six people who were on the internet back then. And we’re going to talk about frozen food, and we’re just going to have a really good time for an hour. When I think about you, Greg, I think about volunteerism. Have you always been involved in not-for-profits or community endeavors like that? Was that something that you’ve done throughout your life, or is this a recent adult thing?
Greg Ng:
Certainly things I’ve done my entire life. I believe in giving what you can, how you can, to anyone. It’s not necessarily, per se, to a specific organization or cause. And I believe that that has over the years manifested into very specific things like with Movember, with our local food bank, with a lot of other great organizations. So I would say yes, but I would also say we’re never finished. So, maybe I have a history of it. I’m constantly looking for other ways to give back, either on a one-on-one level or to an organization.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, I asked this question because I want to talk about the pandemic. For someone like you, who is so involved in the community, who leads an organization, who has a big job, who is just involved with your children, as well, we hit March of 2020, and shit shuts down. So you’re new to your job, five months in, and you’re trying to figure out how to deal with your fam and make sure they’re safe and keep yourself safe. Meanwhile, you’ve got a business to run, an organization to lead, people to inspire. You’ve got to clear a path so people can do their jobs, basically, as a CEO. What was that like?
Greg Ng:
Scary. Scary again. Scary again. I felt that there were a lot of knowns, and there were a lot of unknowns. The knowns for us is that we had a great team with great momentum who collaborated well. The unknowns was how do we continue to collaborate? How do we ensure that our team is taken care of? We made a decision early on — one, to be very transparent with what we know and what we don’t know. Two, to be very decisive in terms of policy, if you will, to make sure that our team felt supported. As an aside, I feel like a lot of companies say throwaway lines of saying that they’re people-first. Inevitably, they’re not. They’re profit-first. And we are both.
I don’t believe that it’s people over profit, and I don’t believe it’s profit over people. I believe that being empathetic, taking care of your people leads to profit. Those are conjoined. So really early on, we made the decision very specifically to be employee-first. And what did that mean? It meant like when you have an employee who has to be a full-time mom, teacher and team member, how can we best provide there?
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yeah. So what’d you do?
Greg Ng:
We created a fully flexible work schedule. So we doubled down on saying, “Look, we’re not clock watchers. We’re not a 9 to 5 shop. You are here because you add a valuable piece to our team. Let us understand what you need. We’ll work together on what the team needs, and let’s figure it out together.” So, that’s where we started.
Laurie Ruettimann:
So did you lose anybody in those early days? Because there are stories from my friends in leadership and human resources where particularly working moms, but not just working moms — caregivers, parents of all kinds — just said, “I can’t. Even with the flexibility you’re offering, I just can’t. I need to opt out.” So did you lose anybody at your organization for that reason?
Greg Ng:
Yeah, for sure. For sure. We lost a ton of people, actually, for many reasons. If you look back all the way from March 2020 to now, we’ve lost employees for a lot of different reasons. Some because of the unknown and the stress and the hassle and the mental health and the current demands of our existing clients with less resources, because it was then harder to hire back. We lost in what many call the Great Resignation. I saw more correctly stated as the Great Reevaluation.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yeah, or just the great swap, where people are swapping out one job for another, and nothing changes in their lives.
Greg Ng:
Yeah. I view that as a great opportunity. I don’t believe in permanent switches. I don’t believe in when someone leaves a job, that’s forever. It may be forever. But I believe in, really, how do we address people at a human level? So I wish them the best. I support them the most that I can. And I hope that they find the right place. And in some cases, maybe the right place, they’ll decide, is to come back and join us. We’ve seen the whole gamut.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yeah. Have you had any boomerang employees at this point who have left and come back? Because there’s so many anecdotal stories out there of people going, “Oh snap, I left this job. I thought I was going to get something else. Turns out I didn’t get it. And I miss my old colleagues. I miss my friends. And what I really needed was a break and maybe a raise.” So have you had anybody come back?
Greg Ng:
You know, I’m a boomerang myself. So, certainly I’m of the mindset that those boomerang relationships can be great under the right circumstances. We just hired a person back who did not leave us during the pandemic but was a former employee from many, many years back. The answer is yes, not necessarily those who have left us in the last couple years.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well as we’re starting to evolve in this world of work, we’re getting out of 2000, out of 2021, into 2022, it’s interesting because many companies are now itching to get the workforce back — as if they were on some sort of extended vacation and now it’s time for the real work to get started. So 2022 is all about return to office and like return to 2019, if you ask me. So what are you doing at Brooks Bell? Are you getting everybody back together, getting the band back together in the office?
Greg Ng:
That’s an interesting question because I do believe, yes, we are getting the band back together, but not nearly like what I think a lot of people portray or say as return to office. Our return-to-office policy is that there is no return-to-office policy, forever. For a number of reasons. Let’s start with a more personal reason. For the rest of my life, what happened during 2020, ’21, early ’22, continuing, will make its mark on the way I am as a human being. I can’t just forget the last two years and say, “Let’s go back to 2019,” and companies shouldn’t, either. When I talk to other leaders who talk about their return-to-office policy, if I really ask the question more times than they want me to ask, the real answer is they have a lease they can’t get out of. They have a justification that they need to make that there are butts in the seat.
Laurie Ruettimann:
100%. And they have a lease with a friend who owns the commercial real estate. That’s often the case. That to me is so frustrating. On top of that, those executives are still working from home themselves many times. It drives me crazy, Greg. It drives me crazy.
Greg Ng:
Yeah, it’s horrible. Let’s call it for what it is. Those decisions come from a place of distrust and rooted strictly on bottom line. Here’s the reality. We’re paying our lease. We’re paying for empty cubes and seats. We just renewed our lease, by the way. And the reason why is because I believe that there is a reason to have a physical space for people to gather. I also believe that we can be very efficient, collaborative and build a new type of culture with team members that are in person together and not in person together.
Laurie Ruettimann:
So what’s the case for keeping the lease and keeping the space if there’s no official return-to-office policy? I get what you’re saying. Your philosophy is, we’re going to figure it out. We can collaborate. We can figure out this hybrid post-COVID work environment together. But why hang onto the real estate?
Greg Ng:
Hanging onto the real estate because it still feels like home. Hanging onto the real estate because let’s acknowledge that there are people who draw energy from being with others, and there are people that don’t. So for the same reason why we wouldn’t move all hybrid is the same reason why we wouldn’t say, “Everyone, come into the office.” So I don’t know what the future will bring after this next lease renewal comes up, whether we will be in the same space or not. But what I do know for sure is we will have a space to meet.
I enjoy my flexibility as much as others do, but I also really, really over-romanticize the idea of five days a week, seeing people walking down the hall, chit-chatting with them. But I also acknowledge that I have teammates that don’t, they don’t want that. So how can I continue to promote balance, a healthy relationship with our colleagues and our friends and family and ourselves, while also then saying, “Here is my dictate to how you work”? It doesn’t match.
Laurie Ruettimann:
No, it certainly doesn’t. And I love the evolution that you’ve had as a CEO, from someone who is new in the role and really wanting to make that connection, to understanding that connections can come in a variety of ways. One of the reasons why I asked you to join me on the podcast today is because I read on LinkedIn that you’re taking an approach to really create a community of collaboration. You’re encouraging people to get together. And I don’t want to steal your thunder and your really great idea. Why don’t you tell us about it?
Greg Ng:
Sure. Before 2020, we had one remote employee.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Oh God, that poor employee, by the way, was probably like, “What the hell? Think of me sometimes.” Right?
Greg Ng:
Exactly. And here’s the thing. He was a remote employee because he used to live here and work here in our office, and he decided for life reasons to move to a different location. And we say, “You’re great. We want you still here.” So we made all these exceptions for him to work remotely, and we did a horrible job of it. He stayed because he is a great person, and he loved what we did, and he had that connection. He has since moved on to a great job that he loves, and that’s great for him.
But now we have almost a third of our team remote, and that’s not even including those that live in the Raleigh-Durham area that could go to the office. They’re in different states. So I went through a whole thought process of, well, how can we make them feel a part of our culture? And I incorrectly thought it was about the office space, and it really isn’t. It’s about the people trusting, believing in each other, seeing each other, going deeper than just a “how is your weekend?” precursor to a status meeting.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yeah, or deeper than a staff happy hour, which drove me crazy during COVID. I can’t tell you how many times people were saying, “Well, my company wants us to get us together for a happy hour.” And what about the people who don’t drink? What about the people who have stuff to do? Are they not to be included because they have to educate their children during the happy hour? So I’m glad you were thinking beyond that superficial. So, where did you end up?
Greg Ng:
So, where we ended up is we made a commitment to our team. We started it this year, because quite frankly, in 2019, there were still some concerns about people traveling, both individually and me as representing our leadership. But we’ve made a commitment to fly all of our remote employees and bring in all our team together quarterly. We did our first one in February. We did our Q2 one just a couple weeks ago. It is completely optional. If someone feels like they want to participate remotely, they can. If they feel like they don’t want to fly or travel, even if they live down the street from our office, totally can. We’re spending more time on “magnet activities” instead of mandatory.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Wait. What’s that?
Greg Ng:
So, magnet instead of mandatory. Magnet activities are activities that attract people to want to come and participate, knowing full well that it’s optional, than to say, “You must come.” So, that’s the first thing, flying everyone quarterly to meet as a team. And there’s many different layers to that too. There are absolutely very important meetings and information that we’re sharing together, but there’s also time to socialize and not just do work, but just exist and form bonds.
Laurie Ruettimann:
The idea of flying in employees on a quarterly basis is awesome, but a lot of companies hear that and think, I don’t have the money for that, or there’s no way. Or that kind of planning is going to take away from business operations because you’re not just creating an experience for people in the room. You’ve got to be thoughtful around people who are joining you virtually, almost creating two experiences. And that sounds expensive from both a currency perspective and a time perspective. So did your team have concerns about that? I mean, are you budgeting for that now differently, because that is a huge organizational investment?
Greg Ng:
Guess what? It is expensive from a time and a money standpoint, and it’s worth it. We do budget for it. We’ve budgeted for every quarter. We budget it when we hire a new employee because it matters. Because again, we say we are a people-first company, and I can’t stand it when people say they’re people-first and everything they do and act upon is anything but being people-first. It is the most important thing we can do is to invest in our team, because we’re nothing without them. And we are a professional services organization.
Time is money, but guess what? It’s reaping benefits. There’s a feeling of just tremendous camaraderie and momentum and trust. And we are not even close to being finished. We absolutely have problems that we still sort through, but it starts with just a belief structure that we want to do great work together. That’s why. Would we get better bonuses, better profit? Absolutely. And in its place, we would have less trust. We might have someone who lives in some random state that doesn’t feel a part of anything.
Laurie Ruettimann:
So item number two that you’re focused on, I mean, you’re bringing everybody together, but you’ve gone a step beyond that. So why don’t you tell us about that?
Greg Ng:
Yeah. So, that’s great to bring everyone together. Love it, love seeing everyone, love building those bonds, but work also takes other shapes and forms. So how do you then reconcile when you have a remote employee that has someone maybe that reports to them in a different state, or a special project with a client or groups of teams from different states that need to get together?
So we’ve built a budget for each one of our remote employees, a $5,000 travel budget per year, that they can use whenever they want for wherever they want, as long as they’re using it to visit or collaborate with another team member. I’m very excited about the reception it has gotten by our team. I’m very excited by the reception it’s gotten by those who have read my LinkedIn posts and things like that.
To me, it is just the start. It is a shift in the way in which I believe our culture is. Our culture is not about our core team at Raleigh headquarters and everyone else, nor is it about each person individually. It really is about us collectively as a whole. So how do I ensure that the playing field gets leveled a little bit? That’s one way to start, and much more to come.
How do we make sure that those who live in North Carolina who don’t want to come into the office [who] need a better place to work and be effective? How do we ensure that they truly take time off? Because we have unlimited PTO, by the way. And, of course, huge — everyone complains about unlimited PTO. “Oh, it’s so self-serving,” and all of that. How do I fight against that? Because I believe fundamentally unlimited PTO is the right thing.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Heck yes. You fight against it by taking it, Greg. I think that’s the answer. So you’ve got to be the change you want to see in your organization. So, get out there and take more photos at sporting events, and go and hike like you do. You take these magnificent trips out into nature, and you post about it. You’re not shy about that at all.
Greg Ng:
Yeah. Thanks. I believe that it starts with me. My team needs to hear me say the words, “Please take the time you need. Please value your mental health, your balance. Please spend time with your kids. They’re only getting older. Please spend time with your family.” It’s one thing for me to say that. It’s far another to say it, and then they see an email coming in from me at 10:30 at night or on the weekend. Or the worst — I hate this, I know a lot of people do it, a lot of my friends and colleagues do it, where they’re like, “I’m on vacation, but I’m just covering off a couple emails from the beach.” I hate it.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yeah. It’s obnoxious. Yeah. Agree, agree.
Greg Ng:
Take your vacation. So I show that to them.
Laurie Ruettimann:
But this type of environment, where you’re thinking about where people work and you’re trying to get them together, is great for me because I believe in the hyper-personalization of work. I think we get a better work product out of people when we design a unique experience for them. But again, a lot of people think it’s expensive. So I love the way that you’re thinking about short-term costs versus long-term revenue-generating opportunities or profitability. You’re thinking long term instead of short term. That’s what I’m hearing from you, correct?
Greg Ng:
It is. I think that there’s a dark side to that statement that I will throw out there, and maybe I’m not interpreting it correctly, because when I hear people say that, the next statement tends to be “because it’s cheaper to retain an employee than it is to hire a new one.”
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, I would never say that because I don’t think of people as commodities, and I think your work is not your worth, but I think you’re right. It begs the question, can you really operate a progressive people-first organization in this moment we have of late-stage capitalism? I mean, you’re trying. You’re trying to find that alternative way, but we don’t necessarily know that people-first practices lead to greater profitability. At this point, it’s kind of unproven, but I love the fact that you’re trying.
Greg Ng:
Yeah. Well, I appreciate that. You’re right. Do I have hard facts over generations to show that? No, of course not. But this is what innovation is about, because going with the gut is what I’m going with. Why? Because I’m human, and it makes me feel more human. Because it makes me feel good to know that my team feels valued, they feel balanced. And again, I hope I’m not painting a super-rosy picture. We still have many, many challenges to overcome on an individual and a company way to make sure that those extremes don’t fall into traps. But it feels right.
And guess what? We are profitable. So it’s not like we’re making these expenses and putting ourselves in a hole. We are already seeing the unit economics play out. How do we just ensure that we continue to value and prioritize the things that, in my opinion, matter, which is a third of our lives together, if not more? How do we ensure that it’s worth it, that we love what we do and love the people we do it with?
Life is way, way too short there. And we’ll have team members who, maybe that’s too squishy for them, and that’s OK. But I believe it’s my No. 1 role as CEO to establish who we are as an organization and let other people self-select — self-select in or self-select out, but don’t be wishy-washy about it.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, I love that. As we start to wrap up the conversation, I just wonder what’s up for the rest of 2022 and 2023 for you as a leader. What are you thinking about? What, maybe, is one of the problems you’re trying to tackle? And where is Brooks Bell headed? What’s new, what’s exciting for your organization?
Greg Ng:
Yeah. So we’re doing some really interesting work now. How we work with clients really comes down to the idea of knowing more about your customers. We build insight-driven organizations. What does that mean? I mean, it means that organizations have a better understanding of how to learn from their customers, their segments, their end users. And, inevitably, that’s what we do internally, as well, is get a better understanding of what makes us tick and what makes us do the things that we enjoy doing.
And we’re seeing the market really susceptible to that. Companies have learned that brand affinity, for example, is very important. People very much have relationships with companies. How do you capitalize on that? Again, be empathetic, understand the needs of humans, be real, help to navigate all the unknowns, and that’s what we help companies do. And we’ve seen some great success for that.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well Greg, I’m glad your answer wasn’t we’re doubling down on TikTok.
Greg Ng:
Oh no, no.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Good. Good for you. People who love TikTok, enjoy that. Just take that and run with it. Well Greg, it was awesome to see you again and hang out. Thanks again for joining me on Punk Rock HR and talking a little bit about your COVID journey.
Greg Ng:
Thanks for having me. It’s great to see you.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Hey everybody, I hope you enjoyed this episode of Punk Rock HR. We are proudly underwritten by the Starr Conspiracy. The Star Conspiracy is the B2B marketing agency for innovative brands creating the future of workplace solutions. For more information, head on over to thestarrconspiracy.com. Punk Rock HR is produced and edited by Rep Cap, with special help from Michael Thibodeaux and Devon McGrath. For more information, show notes, links and resources, head on over to punkrockhr.com. Now that’s all for today and I hope you enjoyed it. We’ll see you next time on Punk Rock HR.