My guest today is Angela R. Howard. She is an organizational psychologist, consultant, and author. Angela is also a fellow podcaster; she’s the host of the podcast Humanly Possible: Future of Work Conversations with Angela R. Howard. I have been a fan of Angela and her podcast for a very long time (and I suggest that you check out her conversation with Janelle King on workplace spirituality to see what it’s all about.)
When I found out that she was writing a book, I knew that I had to get her on the show to talk about the employee experience and well-being, leadership, human-centric workplaces, and how she is making a positive impact.
Angela considers herself to be a “cultural anthropologist.” Growing up, she loved studying and picking things apart to understand how they work, so naturally, her landing in the world of workplace psychology is fitting. “I study cultures, I study systems for a living, and have really focused in on mindset shift, behavior shift, and how we can build more human-centric workplace cultures,” she shares.
Are you ready to learn more about a next-gen leader who is focused on creating a positive ripple effect in the workplace and building a vast ecosystem to do it? In that case, you’ll genuinely enjoy this episode with Angela.
Punk Rock HR is proudly underwritten by The Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is a B2B marketing agency for innovative brands creating the future of workplace solutions. For more information, head over to thestarrconspiracy.com.
What Impact Means
Coming from a family where her mother worked in corporate America and her father was a blue-collar worker, Angela has an appreciation for the labor markets, the working class, and those in the corporate sector who are changing the way we work.
She saw firsthand the toll that corporate life took on her mother and how she often felt unrecognized for her efforts. Angela’s mother felt as though she wasn’t doing something with purpose. That perception dramatically impacted Angela—and it’s why she is doing what she is doing today.
Angela envisions the workplace as a container where we are “letting people out into the world, into their communities, into society and how you treat them in this container impacts how they’re impacting their communities,” causing a ripple effect that drives significant change.
“Impact, to me, is how you are positively influencing the people, the world, humanity around you” Angela says. She shares that impact is how your actions, behaviors, connection to social causes, and your identity as an organization influence your employees and customers, partners, suppliers, and more. Leaders have many opportunities to create a positive impact, but they often don’t know how to go about it.
Creating Impact Outside of Tradition
Many leaders start off with great intentions when it comes to creating positive change, but those often go awry when there is pressure on profitability or revenue for the organization. This happens because there are aspects of work focused on the wrong things.
The way we define leadership in today’s world of work is changing. Angela shares, “I think we’re moving more towards leaders having a responsibility on the people, the emotional well-being, the whole human versus in the past, people were seen as resources.” But now that perception is shifting as companies no longer view their employees as just objects with no real input or influence of their own.
Traditional work is a comfort zone for many companies, but it is a paradigm that will stunt growth, prevent productive change, and diminish the positive impacts that both can have. It’s possible to “be profitable and focus on people,” but some organizations find it difficult to fully step out of the traditional workplace paradigms.
Breaking the Traditional Paradigm
In most cases, when consultants leave human resources, they are ready to hit the ground running and start changing the world. But there’s one consistent challenge they face—companies don’t want to spend money to be told they’re doing things wrong.
That’s why, when Angela approaches helping companies, she doesn’t consider herself an HR professional. “I’ve worked in HR, but my educational background is in organizational psychology,” she says. As she digs into the mindset shifts and behavior changes necessary to create impactful change within an organization, relating it back to psychology makes the process less accusatory and more collaborative.
She explains, “I use that to my advantage to, for lack of better words, diagnose what is your culture today. I can get into many details, but that’s really qualitative-quantitative information. That’s then summarized to say, ‘This is what’s happening.’ And we compare that to what you want to actually accomplish.”
There are plenty of buzzwords on how to change the culture and how to make progress. But once a company has a clear goal, Angela’s next step is to identify the levers of leadership, behavior change, mindset shift, process, and systems necessary to achieve it. And for Angela, “an organizational development meets psychology approach” has worked well in creating a positive impact.
[bctt tweet=”‘I think we’re moving more towards leaders having a responsibility on the people, the emotional well-being, the whole human.’ Learn how workplace strategist and author @arosehoward is impacting work on #PunkRockHR!” via=”no”]
People in This Episode
Full Transcript
Laurie Ruettimann:
This episode of Punk Rock HR is sponsored by The Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is the B2B marketing agency for innovative brands, creating the future of workplace solutions. For more information, head on over to thestarrconspiracy.com.
Hey, everybody, I’m Laurie Ruettimann. Welcome back to Punk Rock HR. My guest today is Angela R. Howard. She’s an organizational psychologist, a consultant, an author, and the host of the podcast, Humanly Possible: Future of Work Conversations with Angela R. Howard. Angela’s on the show today because well, I’m a fan and kind of a lurker, I’ve been watching her for a very long time. And when I saw that she was writing a book, I had to get her on to talk about, well, the employee experience and well-being, and leadership, and human-centric workplaces, but really about making an impact. That’s what Angela is all about.
So, if you’re interested in a next-gen leader who is really focused on creating a positive ripple effect and building a huge ecosystem to do it, well, sit back and enjoy this conversation with Angela R. Howard.
Hey, Angela, welcome to the show.
Angela R. Howard:
Thank you, Laurie, thanks for having me. It’s good to be here.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, I’m super happy to have you here. It’s been a long time coming. This is a personal treat for me because I’ve got a Chicago girl on the show. Love that. Why don’t you tell us all who you are and what you’re all about?
Angela R. Howard:
Thanks, Laurie. So, hello everyone, my name is Angela Howard. I consider myself a cultural anthropologist, if that makes any sense. Growing up, I actually wanted to be a paleontologist and I love studying. I love picking things apart and so I landed in the world workplace psychology. So, I study cultures, I study systems for a living, and have really focused in on mindset shift, behavior shift, and how we can build more human-centric workplace cultures.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, you are definitely in a city and in the heart of a culture that I associate with work. On the one hand in Chicago, you have really strong working class families and jobs that are just the bread and butter of that community, and on the other hand, you have these esteemed business schools that study the future of work. So, where are your roots at all that?
Angela R. Howard:
If I look at my family, I’m an only child. My father was your typical blue-collar worker, did not even get to high school, worked in a factory. My mom actually was the breadwinner of our family. She worked the corporate job, she bounced around, she made the living for my family. So, I’m kind of in between, I’m in between the two worlds and appreciate the labor markets and the working class, but also folks who are changing and progressing the world of work.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, I find that fascinating because you’re part of a generation that saw the world of work change through your parents, right? I mean, you’ve got family on both sides of the fence, right? You have a working class father and a mother who was working in corporate America. When you tell them what you do, does it make sense? Do they get it?
Angela R. Howard:
No, absolutely not. I am the one at the Thanksgiving dinner table who’s like, “What do you do again? Are you in HR? Are you in training?” My mom and I have gotten really close lately.My father passed away a few years ago, and so her and I talk all the time and she’s so cute because she enjoys learning from me, which I love. Because a lot of parents are not open.hey don’t want to change, but she’s always asking me questions, and learning, and doing her research and coming back and talking to me about it, so it’s a lot of fun to kind of teach her what I’m doing and having her experience it through me.
Laurie Ruettimann:
So, you’re doing a lot of stuff right now. How do you prioritize what’s most important in your work right now? What are you doing?
Angela R. Howard:
That’s a great question because it’s something I think a lot about. 2022 just appeared. I don’t even know how we got here, but it’s here and I’ve been really intentional about focusing my time and energy around really thinking about my work from the perspective of ESG, social responsibility, working with brands and organizations that actually making waves in this thing called the future of work, this fuzzy concept that everybody’s talking about. And so, my work is really around how do we operationalize culture so that it improves the lives of the people who are experiencing the workplace, but also how that workplace, how that business can consciously really think about how they’re impacting systems and social systems outside of their four walls. And so, that is kind of where I’ve landed around some of my work lately.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, I love it all because it’s optimistic and it assumes that organizations can have a positive impact on humanity even though the past couple thousand years have taught us otherwise. So, why are you so optimistic about organizations and what they can do for their people and for communities?
Angela R. Howard:
You know, I go back to my family, my family has such an impact on me as you can tell, I mention them a lot, and I grew up with a mother who was the breadwinner of our family and she would come back from work day in and day out exhausted. She felt like she wasn’t recognized. She felt like she wasn’t doing something of purpose, and that impacted me and I actually think it’s why I’m doing what I’m doing. But I think we have to think about workplaces as containers that are letting people out into the world, into their communities, into society, and how you treat them in this container impacts how they’re impacting their communities, how they’re impacting other people. And so, there’s this ripple effect that I’m really optimistic about, especially right now, because we have a generation that is holding employers and workplaces accountable for just that. And I look at this next generation of leaders and this next generation of employees, freelancers, contractors, and they are demanding change. So, I think the time for change is now.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, I love that, and you use a word that I associate with you all the time which is impact. This is a word when I think of Angela Howard, I think of impact. So tell me, what does that word mean for you and your work?
Angela R. Howard:
Yeah, so impact, to me, is how are you positively influencing the people, the world, humanity around you. So, how are your actions, how are your behaviors, how is your connection to social causes and your identity as an organization, impacting the people you employ but also your customers, also your partners, your suppliers, the people you’re working with day in, day out to deliver on this broader mission? Truly. I study systems, right? I study organizations, but organizations have kind of a personality of their own. They have a purpose. They have a mission of their own. And so, you really want to play matchmaker, in a way, of bringing people along who feel purposeful in delivering against mission. But you also have this opportunity to impact so much around you, and I think a lot of entrepreneurs, business owners, don’t quite always know how they can do that.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Or they start out with good intentions and good intentions go awry, they take a left turn when there’s pressure on profitability or revenue. And I wonder what happens, because I don’t think any leader, any entrepreneur starts a business to be evil. The other thing I find interesting is nobody’s ever honest about it. So, no leader is ever like, “Yeah man, we suck.” It’s very rare. So, what’s happening here? Why are we going the wrong way or why are we lying to ourselves as leaders and founders?
Angela R. Howard:
I think there’s something about traditional work and ways of working that are focused on the wrong things. I think that things like leadership, how we define leadership, command and control leadership versus empathetic leadership, for example, which I think we’re moving more towards leaders having a responsibility on the people, the emotional well-being, the whole human versus in the past, people were seen as resources, right, we both worked in human resources, it’s even named, or human capital management, we saw people as objects, almost as to a means to an end. And so, I think that the paradigm of traditional work is changing, but I think traditional work is comfortable for a lot of people and it’s always been the standard.
And so, like you said, the intention was never to be evil but we’ve already defined a system that works for everybody. Traditional work has worked for people for years and years. We’ve become profitable. We’ve created generational wealth with these standards. And so, the intention isn’t there but I think sometimes also we’re not listening. As business leaders, we’re not listening to what can be. You can be profitable and focus on people. You can be conscious in your business decisions. You can unpack, “What is my identity as a company, as an organization and what kind of legacy do I want to lead in the world?” You can do both. But I think we’re stuck in some traditional workplace paradigms.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, I wonder where you get involved in all this, because I know there are consultants out there who leave human resources, they hang a shingle and they’re like, “I’m going to change the freaking world,” and I’m like, “Yeah, good luck to you,” because companies don’t want to spend money to be told they’re doing things wrong. So I just wonder, Angela, when you are hired by an organization or you come in and you do your work, how do you do what you do? I’m sure a lot of HR professionals would love to know.
Angela R. Howard:
I feel like I have a bit of an edge around the approach that I take. I don’t consider myself an HR professional. I’ve worked in HR but my educational background is in organizational psychology, business psychology. We work with people, and a lot of what we do and the reasons why we do it and the mindset shifts and the behavior changes that we need to make are centered in psychology. And so, I use that to my advantage to, for lack of better words, diagnose what is your culture today. I can get into a lot of detail but that’s really qualitative, quantitative information. That’s then summarized to say, “This is what’s happening.”
And we compare that to what you want to actually accomplish. So, you hear all the time now, “Oh, we need to change the culture,” or, “We need a more inclusive culture or a performance-based culture,” or all the buzzwords like, “How do you get there? How do you actually get there?” So, the goal is, if you know where you are, you know where you want to go, now let’s talk about the levers of leadership, behavior change, mindset shift, process, systems, the levers we need to pull to get you to the aspiring end goal that you want. And that’s my approach. It’s an organizational development meets psychology approach.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, I love that because it’s both a system that you bring to your engagements but also has your secret sauce, your understanding of other clients, other behaviors, other things that are going all on in different organizations and the ways in which we lie to ourselves and to our employees on a daily basis. And I think that’s so fascinating because I can’t tell you how many organizations I’ve been a part of that have gone through transformation, software, services, attitudes, people, right? They go through these big, enormous change management processes only to end up back where they started, focused on revenue. And of course, because you don’t have an organization if you don’t have money. I totally get it. I like money. We all like money. But I find it so fascinating that human behavior, when left unchecked, reverts back sometimes to the worst tendencies. I don’t know. What are your reflections on that?
Angela R. Howard:
You know, I agree with you. And, for example, when you’re embarking on this transformation, a lot of times, you get to the end point but you’ve worn people out so much because you haven’t used human-centered design when thinking about the change, that you lose people. People are like, “I didn’t sign up for this shit. And by the way, you didn’t even ask me my opinion,” or, “I told you my opinion, you didn’t even take it into consideration.”
So yes, I totally agree with you. I think sometimes, we revert back because we don’t listen to our people. We work in a vacuum and we don’t use tried and true change tactics and human-centered design tactics, stakeholder management, thinking about personas when you’re thinking about change. We just go. And so, I agree with you and I think there’s some simple things you can do to avoid that and to make it more sustainable like leadership commitments, like working hand- in-hand with the people who are experiencing the change. Those are the things that will get you to sustainable change and people will love the change because you’ve included them in the process.
Laurie Ruettimann:
I know you’ve got this body of research that you’ve been working on. You’ve done a million different engagements with clients, and now you’re actually thinking about writing a book, which totally makes sense. I mean, this is the career trajectory for any thoughtful consultant out there who wants to expand a platform, and I know you have a podcast. So, let’s first start with the book. What’s the book all about? When’s it coming out? Who’s publishing it? What are you doing? Give me the details.
Angela R. Howard:
Yeah, yeah, so it’s planned for 2023. I am at the very beginning stages but it’s been on my mind for a while and it’s really around this idea of an impact culture, right, what we talked about earlier which is, how can you build a business that’s going to be a catalyst for change, not just within your company, but in society, with humanity? And so, that’s really what the book is about. And so, this idea of a ripple effect and how do you identify what your ripple effect is, how do you identify who you are as a leader and what legacy you want to lead but also how you want to build this system, this organization that’s going to leave a mark.
And it’s a process, it’s a step-by-step process of reflection as an individual, reflection and alignment as a leadership team, but then, those levers that I talked about earlier, about how you can actually make that change. And so, it’s actually really well aligned with my podcast, Humanly Possible: Future of Work Conversations, and that’s actually why I started the podcast, because I wanted to talk to change makers, people who were actually making an impact around the world of work. And that was actually my research for the book, so it’s aligned perfectly.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Oh, that’s so perfect and it’s also a lighter lift when you go to write. Let me tell you, I understand this. As you embark on this journey as a writer, I mean, not that you’re out of your element, you love research, I mean, you write when, especially when you work with clients, but what’s surprising you so far now that you are an author?
Angela R. Howard:
Oh my gosh. When you said that, I got the chills. The process is surprisingly cleansing. I don’t know how else to describe it. It’s a little bit like therapy because you’re like just getting the shit out of your head, and I’m a very structured person, I love models. I love methodology. I love to put pieces together. But what I wasn’t prepared for was the personal lived experiences that came out in the process and things that I hadn’t thought about or connected with, the reason why I do what I do or the way I do what I do, and so it’s been cleansing and therapeutic.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, someone once told me that even the most boring business book is someone’s memoir. And that really stuck with me because now, when someone hands me a book on like change management models or something I’m completely not plugged into like some project management methodology, I’m really honored because I know, especially if it’s a first book, it’s their memoir. So, I love that you’re bringing in your own stories and you’ll bring in stories from your podcast, you mentioned. Tell us about a conversation in your podcast that you were so excited to have and that may make the book.
Angela R. Howard:
I met with a woman named Janelle King. She is a wonderful leadership coach, but she has a really clear vision and clear research around what she calls workplace spirituality. So, it’s not like woo-woo spirituality, like manifesting or anything like that, it’s really about the human experience’s connection to things like purpose and identity and how multifaceted and layered it is, and why it’s really important that we identify it collectively but also individually, and when there’s a mismatch, what happens to that experience. And if you have a chance to listen to it, it’s the chef’s kiss, and Janelle is now a good friend. And so, she is definitely going to make the book. Her lived experiences are definitely going to make the book in her research around workplace spirituality well.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, that’s amazing. We’ll include a link in the show notes and I just cannot wait for everybody to hear that episode. As I think about the path that you’re on as an author, you’ve got this established and esteemed consulting business, the next is to take some really big stages once you get that book out there, right? So, talk a little bit about your role as a speaker. When you go to audiences pre-COVID and maybe virtually right now, what are you talking about?
Angela R. Howard:
I really am centered around talking about impact culture and impact leadership. And although I talk about a lot of things currently, I’m really looking to center everything around the book and the concepts in the book. But this really comes back to things like DE&I. How do you create inclusive workforces? It includes things like leadership. How are we thinking about the next generation of leadership? But also, things like, what is culture actually? How do you operationalize it? How do you identify and operationalize it? I mean, that’s kind of a sampling of some of the things I talk about, but I’m my best when I’m able to talk about workplaces as a force for change.
Laurie Ruettimann:
You know, I’m asked all the time to do these talks, right, like, “Can you talk about digital transformation in the workplace,” or, “Can you talk about systems manifestation in the workplace?” And I can’t talk about any of that. And, years ago in my career, I would say yes to that stuff and then I would just make it up. I’d Google it just like everybody else and try to put together a talk as I’m like, “Oh, they’re going to pay me real money.” Right? So, this is the hustle of being a speaker. I’m well past that stage of doing that. Now, I just Google to make sure I’m not saying anything that my friends have said that’s like about it. So, I wonder if there are things that you’re starting to turn down or you’re like, “Eh, I’m not talking about that.” I would imagine you get pinged to talk a lot about culture, which is good, but are there certain things where you’re like, “Nah, I’m done with that. I’m never speaking about that again”?
Angela R. Howard:
Anything related to traditional HR, performance managements-
Laurie Ruettimann:
Heck yes.
Angela R. Howard:
… compensation, that phase of my life is done. I mean, it’s given me some good experience but it’s not my world anymore. And then, anything surface level DE&I, unfortunately or unfortunately, a lot of the work that I do gets interpreted as DE&I, which it’s a part of it, but I try to really drive home, that I’m not going to speak to DE&I without the context of culture. It’s not a separate strategy. And so, I just will not talk about DE&I in a vacuum.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, when you talk about it as it relates to culture, I can hear why some people would’ve want you to come in and talk about DE&I. That’s the thing that ticks the box, right? But when you do it, what’s the difference? How do you tie it to culture?
Angela R. Howard:
Yeah, so the difference is, again, that concept of impact culture and how are you impacting the people in your organization. How are you creating an inclusive environment so that they can thrive? Your company is a destination to progress them from a human experience perspective but also from a career perspective. And then, how are you thinking about concepts like generational wealth? Do you have programs in place to create opportunities, not just within your workplace, but actually within family units and communities? Are you creating equitable experiences where leaders are getting to know people at a human level so you can allocate resources appropriately? It’s not just about representation or race. It’s about neurodiversity and being able to, and thriving environments where people are different and you’re getting better results in innovation and creativity. That’s really what I can speak to, less about what’s the E and what’s the D and why do we add the B and yeah.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, I’m laughing because most organizations can’t get beyond that. They can talk about the D and the I but they’re not talking about generational wealth because the only wealth they create is for the board of directors, the leadership team, and maybe some shareholders. So, this is definitely a Sisyphean task that you’re up against, like you’re rolling that boulder up the hill. But who better to do it than you? I mean, you’re an optimist. You’ve got the skills. You’ve got the knowledge. So Angela, I am betting on you even though I hate saying that about people. But I’m so excited about your career, your career trajectory, and I’m really honored that you were on the podcast today. If people want to learn more about you, where do they go? How do they find you?
Angela R. Howard:
Yeah, angelarhoward.com, again, podcast is Humanly Possible: Future of Work Conversations. And Laurie, it was a pleasure.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Oh my goodness, listen, when your book comes out, we’ll have you back. And if you need me to show up and interview you somewhere or sell books for you on a corner, I am there. I believe in you. This is awesome and I’m so happy and pleased to introduce you to the Punk Rock HR audience.
Angela R. Howard:
Thank you, Laurie, I appreciate it.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Hey, everybody. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Punk Rock HR. We are proudly underwritten by The Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is the B2B marketing agency for innovative brands, creating the future of workplace solutions. For more information, head on over to thestarrconspiracy.com. Punk Rock HR is produced and edited by Rep Cap, with special help from Michael Thibodeaux and Devon McGrath. For more information, show notes, links, and resources, head on over to punkrockhr.com. Now, that’s all for today and I hope you enjoyed it. We’ll see you next time on Punk Rock HR.
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