My guest for this bonus episode is my friend Liz Vaccariello. Liz is the former editor-in-chief of some of the world’s most popular publications, including Reader’s Digest, People and Parents magazine. She’s also the former editorial director at Dotdash Meredith, the largest digital and printer publisher in the U.S. — and parent company of some of Liz’s former publications.
In this conversation, Liz and I discuss how she pivoted her career to align with her purpose, the challenges of building trust over Zoom and what it really means to be a writer and editor.
Liz has over 25 years of experience in the publishing industry. But this year, she left Dotdash Meredith to set out on her own — choosing to pursue writing that helps brands that are improving people’s lives.
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How the Pandemic Changed Work and Self
Countless people reevaluated their lives during the pandemic, including how they balanced work with the rest of their lives. Many, including Liz, went so far as to leave their jobs in pursuit of work that better aligned with their values.
When the pandemic began, Liz was the editor-in-chief of Real Simple, which helps readers simplify their homes and lives. The sudden shift to spending more time at home not only changed people’s lives but also the focus at Real Simple.
“We talked to advertisers, and we were like, ‘Look, home is where it’s at,’” Liz says. “There’s chaos in the world. There’s political chaos, as well as pandemic chaos. And so all of the pieces of the Real Simple brand were able to be of greater value during the pandemic.”
The pandemic also sparked a change in Liz. Getting out on daily walks was part of that shift in perspective. “I became even more attached to seeing beautiful things in the world,” she says. “It’s really about seeing the world’s a beautiful place, and I want to see more of it, and I want to see it with the people I love.”
Liz eventually decided to take this approach to her work, writing more about what she values, such as lifestyle, travel and wellbeing.
“The pandemic changed all of us in so many ways, and that’s one way that it changed me,” she says. “It’s not that I didn’t want to go back to an office; it’s just that what I wanted to spend my days thinking about and writing about and editing changed.”
Why Building Trust in Virtual Meetings Is Difficult
Remote work has many benefits, notably the flexibility for people and the ability to align work to their lives instead of the other way around. But Liz sees a huge drawback to remote work: “You can’t build trust over a screen.”
Being on screen is more performative than face-to-face interactions, Liz says, and there’s also big differences in how we present ourselves.
“For example, a junior employee does not know, nor am I going to tell the junior employee, that the fact that they’re on their Zoom, not even looking at the screen twirling their hair … they would never behave that way in a meeting,” Liz says.
Being in person doesn’t mean lack of flexibility or consideration. Liz likes to model the behavior she wants to see in her team, and she finds that’s much more difficult when people aren’t connecting in real time and in the same space. And with junior employees, in particular, they might not have much knowledge of how to show up at work — they especially need that guidance.
The Essence of Writing and Editing
Writing and editing are two distinct jobs, and each must work in partnership to support each other through to the finished product. When working with brands, for example, Liz hones in on the brand’s goals.
“It’s important for me to listen to the company or the brand, learn what their vision is, what project that I’m undertaking, what are their goals, and then bring my expertise and my opinion to it,” Liz says. “But I first, really listen to what their needs are, interface that with the marketplace, and then execute. So you have to take ego out of both things.”
People in This Episode
Liz Vaccariello: LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter
Transcript
Laurie Ruettimann:
Punk Rock HR is sponsored by Betterworks. The world’s most dynamic organizations rely on Betterworks to accelerate growth by supporting transparent goal setting, enabling continuous performance and learning from employee insights. Betterworks is on a mission to help HR leaders make work better. Discover how they can help you by visiting betterworks.com today.
Hey everybody, I’m Laurie Ruettimann. Welcome back to Punk Rock HR. My guest this week is Liz Vaccariello. She’s the former editor-in-chief of brands you know like Real Simple magazine and Reader’s Digest and even People Magazine. And she’s now pivoted and on her own, working on really great writing, editing and brand projects that focus on telling stories around wellbeing and health and travel and parenting and, really, just being human.
On today’s show, we talk about that, what it’s like to pivot, what it’s like to find your truth and be closer to what you want to do in this world — and how to do it, and how to make it all happen, and maybe some of the crazy missteps along the way. So if you’re interested in a conversation with someone who clearly loves writing, loves editing, loves telling stories, and is doing it and has done it at all different stages of her life while being a caregiver and parenting and a wife and a working woman in Manhattan, well, sit back, and enjoy this fun and wide-ranging conversation with my friend Liz Vaccariello on this week’s Punk Rock HR.
Hey, Liz, welcome to the podcast.
Liz Vaccariello:
Oh, I am so happy to be here. It’s so nice to talk with you, Laurie.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Oh, Liz, we’ve just been connected over the internet for many years, so it’s fun to do this in real life. So before we get started, why don’t you tell everybody who you are and what you’re all about.
Liz Vaccariello:
Who I am and what I’m all about, it’s like you have to come up with the 20 words that are in your bio for Instagram. What do you choose? Mother, wife, editorial person is what I wrote for the last couple of years, and then writer has snuck back into the bio in recent times. I have been an editor-in-chief at some of the world’s most prestigious magazine brands. I have just been so privileged to — I’ve been editor-in-chief of Reader’s Digest. Globally, Prevention — the health and the natural cures of that brand were incredible. And then, most recently, Parents and Real Simple and finally People for about six months last year. I helped people do some transition work, and then in September, I was editorial director of Dotdash Meredith, which owns Real Simple and People.
And when we turned the corner into the new year, I was ready. I had been thinking about what I wanted to do. Editorial director is a love of all 42 brands that Dotdash Meredith owns, and it’s a wonderful title, and it’s a wonderful job. You get to sort of talk and be sort of matrixed with all the editors in chief, but I like to run things, I like to make things, and I wasn’t sure that I was adding much value to the company because I’m at my best when I am — my sort of personal mission statement had always been that I want to be the creative force behind and face of a brand that improves people’s lives.
And I’d always been able to do that because I love to go on TV, but only if I’m talking about a story that has information that’s helpful. Over the course of my career, where they’re like, “You’re so good on camera, why don’t you work on developing this TV show?” And the producers are writing everything and you’re standing there with a microphone. No good, no fun, no good. My energy is all wrong. I’m a very, I think, authentic person and unless I truly care deeply about something, can’t bring it.
So I like to make stuff. So I decided to start my own business and to go out on my own and to leave the meetings behind, leave the executive strategy, and the PowerPoint decks, and write stories about things that interested me. There’s no sort of novel in me. There’s no memoir that I’m emotionally capable of talking about at this point. And so I’m writing for websites for major brands. I’m doing mainly travel, wellness, beauty and parenting teenagers. Those are the things I know right now. And I also wrote a story for — this is, I guess, in the wellness space — I wrote a story on dogs and longevity, aging and all of the funding and research behind the senior care of dogs. So interesting.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, that’s a big umbrella of things you’re interested in. And the two key themes that I hear the core of this are writing and editing, making other people’s ideas, sing, shine all for the greater good of moving the world forward. I mean, that’s kind of the theme that I’m picking up on. And I want to talk a little bit about both writing and editing because being a creator right now is like, everybody’s a creator. My 13-year-old niece considers herself to be a creator. I wonder what it takes to truly be a writer, to truly be an editor. What is at the essence, not only of those jobs, but of those callings?
Liz Vaccariello:
There’s one thing that reaches across both things, being a writer and being an editor. And frankly, writing and creating and making something up from scratch is the harder of the two jobs.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yeah. I think so.
Liz Vaccariello:
That metaphor of like you’re at the typewriter and the blood on the paper, right?
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yeah. And maybe my question is wrong. I mean, some would say writing and editing are completely different skill sets. So writing takes this visceral thing that you have within you and takes the courage to get it out, and an editor makes it shine. Writing is thinking, and editing is polishing, maybe, I don’t know. What do you think about that?
Liz Vaccariello:
I think the thing that’s in common with both things is you have to be a good listener. So if you’re a college student — I would always tell college students who want to be journalists — don’t necessarily worry about the journalism degree. Get a liberal arts degree, be a curious person, have a wide range of interests. That’s what will serve you well as a journalist. And so when you’re an editor and you’re a writer, if you’re a writer and it’s nonfiction, you have to be listening to the person you’re interviewing. You can’t be thinking of your next question because you might cut off the conversation in mid-important point.
So you have to be a good listener. And same with editing, if you’re taking on a project for another company, another brand, right? I’m a hired gun at this point. It’s very important not for me to have the vision, but for me to listen to the company or the brand, what is their vision, what project that I’m undertaking, what are their goals? And, of course, bring my expertise and my opinion to it, but to really listen to what the needs are, interface that with the marketplace, and then execute. So you have to take ego out of both things, I think writing and editing.
And for the sake of this conversation, I would say, I’m going to talk about nonfiction writing. I’m going to talk about reporting because nonfiction — and non-memoir writing, I’m doing some work with some writing groups where it’s a writing prompt. It’s very personal and you’re writing your own truth, but that’s just for me on the side. It’s really important to be focused on what the truth is and the best way to tell the story. You read these writing books, so that’s Strunk & White, and I devour that kind of stuff, and that you have to kill your darlings. And so it’s fun to put on my own editor hat when I’m writing. Yes, these two paragraphs about your dog, Liz, are very interesting, but ultimately they’re not important to the main point, and it doesn’t serve the reader.
Laurie Ruettimann:
I find it so fascinating that you talk about removing the ego because for so many people in this world of content creation, video creation, idea creation, it’s ego first, and they want to tell their truths and they want to interject their politics. And I think all of that is very noble, and I don’t know that we can ever remove ourselves from the things we’re working on. I think that’s a nice stoic idea, but I don’t know that it’s realistic. And actually, some ideas may be better served from our passions. But right now, this idea that I’ve got a truth and I’ve got a story to tell and it’s really important that I interject it is part of the whole narrative of content creation. So I wonder what your thoughts are about that, and is there any good to that?
Liz Vaccariello:
Such a great question. And it really depends on the niche or the category that you’re working in. If you’re a political journalist and you’re on a certain network that demands you have a point of view, or you’re in late night, the evening hours, which demands that you have a point of view, that’s one thing. It’s the line between self-promotion — because you have to sort of put yourself out there now to be a content creator, you have to bang your own drum and toot your own horn. And I wrote this and it’s fabulous, and look at this important person I just had dinner with and all that stuff.
It’s fascinating to me, since I’ve stepped away from a media brand temporarily or maybe forever, how quiet my own social media has gotten. I feel like when I was the editor-in-chief of Real Simple and I was at the Kitchen and Bath show, I was everywhere and taking pictures with the head of innovation at Frigidaire, and it was just all of it, almost because I was excited for the reader and for the brand I was putting on that face of the brand hat.
And now I have this real sense of no one cares you have dinner with, and it just makes you sort of look like you’re trolling for likes or something. I don’t see the value anymore. It’s more about I want to make the thing. I’d rather have a nice coffee with the source of a story or a nice Zoom with somebody who I’m interviewing, and have it be a genuine conversation or have that reporter-subject role be valid rather than make it a social media moment. So that’s been an interesting transition for me. I think when you’re talking about lifestyle categories, like health and parenting and travel, to a certain extent, that authenticity, your personal reaction to a beauty product or a place or a sense of awe, it’s something you’re seeing in nature, that’s valid. That can be part of the story. But you very quickly will take yourself out of it to deliver the facts and to deliver the information, particularly in an age where much content is digital and so needs to be short.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Absolutely. Well, I’m thinking about the pivot that you’ve just gone through in your own career — working for these prestigious brands, these amazing brands, and now really being the face of your own company but still trying to align your mission, your values with the things you want to do. You’re focused on health, if I’m not mistaken, travel, wellbeing, parenting, animals, and I find that these are the things we’re all focused on during the past three years. You’re focused on a very human element that we’ve all been kind of immersed in, if we’ve been lucky during the pandemic. So talk to me about what it’s been like for you during the pandemic to make your own pivot and to realign to some of these core messages that I think, actually, have been in your life wherever you’ve worked. Now, they’re forefront, right?
Liz Vaccariello:
During the pandemic, I was editor-in-chief of Real Simple. It’s “which of my children.” I love every single brand I’ve ever led for a different reason and in a different way. So people always ask, “What’s your favorite magazine that you ever worked for?” But Real Simple had my heart because of its ethos about simplifying. Not necessarily that it’s about decluttering closets, which it’s very much a part of, that’s its mission, but it was about simplifying, and it’s about the home in many ways. And the pandemic had forced all of us to focus our metaphorical homes.
So literally, the spaces around us, which allowed us to — we were all repainting the wall behind us that we were seeing on Zoom and all of that sort of thing. But everything came into the home. Fitness came into the home. And I actually took that opportunity at Real Simple to pivot Real Simple during the pandemic. We talked to advertisers, and we were like, “Look, home is where it’s at. There’s chaos in the world. There’s political chaos, as well as the pandemic chaos.”
And so all of the pieces of the Real Simple brand were able to be of greater value during the pandemic. So it was very interesting. So I find that as we’ve emerged from the pandemic, there’s been a values reset around the world among Americans, among women in particular, if I can be so bold as to say that, or among caretakers, parents — maybe that’s a better word than women. What matters is our people and our family, our pets, our neighbors, our community, the beauty of nature. I remember just leaning into the sight of watching the trees change over the course of that year, as I would take my walks over that pandemic year. And I was more mindful during those walks because I was watching the beauty of the world unfold in front of me.
So I became even more attached to seeing beautiful things in the world. It’s really about seeing — the world’s a beautiful place, and I want to see more of it, and I want to see it with the people I love. So that’s where the travel comes in. So the pandemic changed all of us in so many ways, and that’s one way that it changed me. It’s not that I didn’t want to go back to an office, it’s just that what I wanted to spend my days thinking about and writing about and editing changed. And if it didn’t have those values, I didn’t want to do it.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, and you’ve made this really interesting choice. You’ve pivoted towards those values, towards those things you love, but that comes at a cost. And even when you’re privileged and you have some privilege, you still have to make choices. And so you’ve given up, for example, managing people for good or for bad. Some would say that’s great, and some would say, “No, I miss that energy,” and we can talk about how you feel about that. But you’ve given up directly managing people and you’ve given up that big corporate job that you had. And I just wonder, has it been worth it so far?
Liz Vaccariello:
I miss the people. I have a client, one of my major clients is Organic Spa Media, and so they have an annual bookazine coming out in October, so I’m getting to know all of their writers and I’m assigning it. So I have sort of a team in that small role that I’m playing during part of my week, and connecting with and learning about that industry as I go on to leading a daylong event for them, and I’m getting to know all the experts.
And I was very good at and loved connecting with employees and peers, but also my team, that team building. I do miss it, but it got very, very difficult, and the nature of it changed during the pandemic, the Zoom nature of it. And even after we came back, it never again was all 40 people in the office every day where I could make sure I was having that face time or that hallway smile to the copy editor I might not have a meeting with kind of thing.
So I felt as if that part of things, it was OK. So it was OK. As extroverted as I seem, I’m also very much an introvert. I enjoy the quiet hours, the — first of all, the ability to set my own schedule, and I can set aside two hours to write in my journal or to work on the story that’s due next week. I can just spend an entire afternoon doing that. And I find that energizes me more than I ever would’ve believed it would.
Laurie Ruettimann:
I really appreciate the fact that you brought up the changing nature of the workforce in the post-pandemic world because one of the things I hear from managers time and time again is that they’ve come back to the office, but they don’t, to your point, have everybody in the office at the same time. And the ability to develop trust and to create commonality, and familiarity, and to even do something reciprocal or kind for people or to surprise people on their team has been diminished because we’re not all together.
And yet there’s tension in that because so many of us live better lives with flexibility in the ability not to have to go to the office. Maybe we’re on a three-and-two schedule or a four-and-one schedule, but whatever it is for people, they benefit from having a little bit more autonomy in their lives. And so I actually appreciate hearing from you as someone who managed people, the benefits of the flexibility, but also some of the cost that comes with that. That’s a real cost, right?
Liz Vaccariello:
Very real cost. Very real cost. You can’t build trust over a screen.
Laurie Ruettimann:
I want to know why can’t you build trust over a screen.
Liz Vaccariello:
Because there’s something performative about it. As much as I’m trying not to look at myself right now and look at you, you’re like looking at yourself, you’re wondering, how am I coming off? There is a self-editing that happens, and maybe it’s because that I’ve always had kind of a performative part of my career. I have to public speak, I have to turn up my energy for TV. But a meeting where you are looking at the faces around the room and you’re looking at the body language, I think as a manager, I am very in tune with how I’m coming across to the team. So that’s very difficult, that takes work.
For example, a junior employee does not know, nor am I going to tell the junior employee, that the fact that they’re on their Zoom, not even looking at the screen, twirling their hair, that I’m seeing that body language. They would never behave that way in a meeting. There’s a lack of, “I’m not connecting with that person in any way.” And then if I call on them on the Zoom, they’re like, “Oh, oh.” And it’s almost a surprise tactic.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yeah, to check if they’re paying attention.
Liz Vaccariello:
Yeah, paying attention. It’s just become so loaded. And there’s just really, as a team builder, I like to model the behaviors that I want to see on my team. So I always made a point when I was at Parents, for example, or when my children were young, I would tell people that I’m leaving now because I have to relieve my nanny, so that they see me coming and going. They see that it’s okay to take an afternoon to go get your hair blown out if you can’t work it out, because we’re not taking attendance here. And that kind of seeing the behavior, seeing me connecting, seeing me talk to other people, jumping in on a conversation, having an opportunistic laugh, you just can’t make that happen on Zoom. Just too stiff.
Laurie Ruettimann:
So insightful. And your point around junior employees was so interesting to me because you’re right, people coming into the workforce barely know how to work, let alone how to present themselves in an in-person meeting, let alone how to perform. And I think that word is right, on Zoom, in a way that communicates attention, but also gives them permission to take notes or to pay attention to an animal in the room. I mean, it’s all very complex, and they have to get work done. The mechanism to teach people how to work is decreased or lessened with Zoom. I love that. I think that’s really interesting, and no one has talked about that on my podcast, so I really appreciate you bringing that insight here today. That’s amazing.
Liz Vaccariello:
Well, you’re welcome.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Well, as we start to wrap up the conversation, I really want to focus on what’s next for you because you’ve talked about writing stories around wellness, travel, health, parenting. What are you excited about in the next couple of months?
Liz Vaccariello:
I have 18-year-old twins who are starting at the University of Arizona.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Together. That’s beautiful. That’s really beautiful.
Liz Vaccariello:
In August. I think that, Laurie, that’s maybe part of what’s been going on with me the last six months. What is my life going to be? I will have an empty nest immediately, and I will have little chickities who are a five-and-a-half-hour flight away, so it’s going to be empty. So I’m looking forward to just being around during those final months that they’re here. It’s prom, it’s graduation, but I also have a lot of traveling on the books because of this new role. So I’m going on a bear safari in British Columbia. I’m going to Santa Fe on a road trip in New Mexico with my mom. I’m really going to lean into some of those experiences and then lean into the writing.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Oh, that’s amazing. Well, I’m really grateful for your time today. It was fun just to talk about the world of writing, editing, the world of Liz. And if people want to follow you and your bear safari, even though you don’t want to troll for likes. I mean, that’s not what this is all about.
Liz Vaccariello:
Share my joy.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Right, right. I mean, one of the really beautiful things is that you’re open to connecting with people over the internet. That’s how we met. I sent you my book. I mean, it’s just so fabulous. So if people want to follow you and read your stories, where can they go?
Liz Vaccariello:
Well, it’s Liz Vaccariello, V-A-C-C-A-R-I-E-L-L-O, on both LinkedIn and Instagram. Those are the two platforms that I’m most active on.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Amazing. We’ll include all of that in the show notes. People can go there for the URLs. And I just want to say thanks again for being so generous with your time, coming on.
Liz Vaccariello:
Well, Laurie, I really feel the power of your work and your energy out there in the world of work. As you know, I’ve been a fan for a long time, so this is a privilege for me that you wanted to chat with me.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Oh my goodness. Well, thanks again for being a guest on the show.
Liz Vaccariello:
Thank you.
Laurie Ruettimann:
If you’re interested in learning more about today’s show, you can visit punkrockhr.com. There you’ll find show notes, links, resources, and all the good stuff. Now, that’s all for today. Thanks for joining us, sharing this episode and leaving thoughtful comments on Instagram and LinkedIn. We appreciate your support this and every week on Punk Rock HR.
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