To fix work, you have to start somewhere. In this episode, we’re starting by removing the barriers to hiring. My guest is Stacey Gordon, executive advisor and diversity strategist at Rework Work, where she and her team coach and counsel executive leaders on diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging strategies for their businesses.
In this episode, Stacey and I talk about her consulting and coaching work, the challenges of implementing DEIB and the importance of good old-fashioned change management. Stacey has been published in publications including Forbes, Fast Company and Harvard Business Review and has the No. 1 unconscious bias course on LinkedIn Learning. Stacey has also written an incredible book called “UNBIAS: Addressing Unconscious Bias at Work,” which is available wherever books are sold.
When Stacey helps organizations with DEIB strategies, she focuses on people, not just high-level corporate advice.
“It’s starting from an interpersonal space because we focus so much on the organization, but that makes it so easy to scapegoat and to blame and to have a lack of accountability. Because it’s like, ‘Oh, it’s not me. It’s them. It’s the corporation. It’s the leadership.’ It’s these things that are so easy to sort of distance ourselves from,” Stacey shares.
Punk Rock HR is proudly underwritten by The Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is a B2B marketing agency for innovative brands creating the future of workplace solutions. For more information, head over to thestarrconspiracy.com.
Accountability in All Departments
Many people instinctively assign responsibility for DEIB efforts to the human resources or people departments. It’s true that HR and people teams deal with compliance and culture, but these departments are not the only ones that should be held accountable.
DEIB strategies won’t succeed if leaders aren’t taking personal accountability. Executives must lead by example. And that’s why Stacey wrote her book.
Stacey named her book “UNBIAS” without the “-ed” because she understands that we can’t be completely unbiased as humans, but we can work toward it.
“My thought process was like, ‘Hey, let’s try to unbias our behavior. Let’s try to unbias our decision-making. Let’s try to be unbiased in the way that we speak to one another,’” she says. “Understanding that we’ll probably never get there a hundred percent because we’re not perfect. But if we work on it, we’re going to get closer.”
Frameworks for an Unbiased World
Stacey was in the middle of writing her book in 2020 when George Floyd was murdered. Understandably, many people responded to Floyd’s death by demanding action.
Action is an important component of the framework Stacey’s book offers, but it’s not first. It’s third. “What’s happening is we’re all complaining and saying nothing’s changing. Nothing’s changing because we are all taking performative action. We are taking action that is not sustainable,” she says.
Stacey’s framework was designed for people who want to do better than “check-the-box activity.” The four steps of that framework:
- Awareness: “Awareness of who we are and what we bring to the table.”
- Alignment: “It’s like, ‘OK, now I see what is happening. I’m not going to commit to some accountability. I’m going to commit some resources. I’m going to commit to making this actually happen.’”
- Action: Taking sustainable and nonperformative action.
- Advocacy: “It is continuing, sustaining.”
This framework seems simple, but achieving each step requires hard work.
Well-Intentioned, Wrong Delivery.
Stacey’s framework is based on change management principles. One of the cornerstones of change management is doing the prep work, building community, getting buy-in. Too often, executives and corporations jump into DEIB without laying the groundwork.
When people and organizations rush this process, they make mistakes. You might not “really understand why you’re doing this thing,” Stacey says. “It’s also doing the right things, but for the wrong reason, or for no reason.”
“Now, obviously, as the person who has the No. 1 most-watched unconscious-bias education course across the entire LinkedIn Learning platform, I’m excited about that,” Stacey adds. “I want you to take unconscious-bias education. But I don’t want you to do it when you have no idea why. You’re just like, ‘Whoa, we got to do something.’”
Another mistake is hiring a chief diversity officer without thinking through how you’ll empower them. “So you’re going to hire a chief diversity officer to do what exactly? You’re going to give them no resources, no power, no employees,” she says. “And you’re going to have them do the very thing that you haven’t been able to do. How does that make sense?”
“The third is setting up a DEI committee,” Stacey continues. “Everyone’s got a DEI committee. DEI advocates, DEI committee, DEIBJ, whatever you want to call it. And again, great idea, but what’s its purpose? What are they getting together to do? What’s the mandate? What’s the outcome?”
Stacey understands all too well that implementing DEIB takes effort from every person in an organization, especially the executives. It is a complex process, but one that people can do when they are intentional and use resources like Stacey’s book.
These difficult conversations have long been avoided, but that’s no longer an option. “We’ve been taught to avoid these conversations. We’ve been talked to not talk about sex, or politics, or religion, but yet here we are, having to talk about these things,” Stacey says. “And so the problem is we don’t have proper education or tools for how to handle the conversations that we need to have. And so rather than continue to avoid them, we have to have them, but we’ve got to have them with some education.”
[bctt tweet=”‘What’s happening is we’re all complaining and saying, ‘Nothing’s changing. And nothing’s changing because we are all taking action that is performative.’ ~ @StaceyAGordon, diversity strategist @ReworkWork. Tune in to the latest #PunkRockHR!” via=”no”]
People in This Episode
Stacey Gordon: Website, LinkedIn, LinkedIn Learning Course: “Unconscious Bias,” Book: “UNBIAS: Addressing Unconscious Bias at Work”
Full Transcript
Laurie Ruettimann:
This episode of Punk Rock HR is sponsored by The Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is the B2B marketing agency for innovative brands, creating the future of workplace solutions. For more information, head on over to thestarrconspiracy.com.
Hey everybody. I’m Laurie Ruettimann. Welcome back to Punk Rock HR. My guest today is Stacey Gordon. She’s an executive advisor and diversity strategist of Rework Work, where she and her team coach and counsel executive leaders on DEI strategies for their businesses. Not only has she been published in Forbes and Fast Company and Harvard Business Review, Stacey’s unconscious-bias course is No. 1 in its category on the LinkedIn Learning platform. You can also find Stacey’s book, “UNBIAS: Addressing Unconscious Bias at Work,” at Amazon, Barnes & Noble and wherever books are sold. And on today’s show, we talk about the ecosystem all around Stacey Gordon, the challenges of implementing DEI strategies and how a lot of this is just good old fashioned change management. So if you’re into a conversation with a super-cool woman who I got to meet in New York City live and in person, well, sit back and enjoy this conversation with Stacey Gordon on Punk Rock HR.
Hey Stacey, welcome to the podcast.
Stacey Gordon:
Thank you, thank you. Appreciate being invited to join you.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, it’s so fun to physically see you. I can see you over the internet here, and we spend some time together in New York. And before we talk about all that good stuff, why don’t you tell everybody who you are and what you’re all about?
Stacey Gordon:
So I am Stacey Gordon, and I am a diversity strategist. I am an executive advisor, and that just means that I spend a ton of time working with CEOs and their executive teams around the globe, helping them start to formulate their DEI strategy, but more from a personal space than even from an organizational lens, because we find that is where we need to start.
Laurie Ruettimann:
What does that even mean, to start from a personal perspective? Because for me, that means I got to do some work
Stacey Gordon:
Exactly. You do have to do some work. It’s starting from an interpersonal space, because we focus so much on the organization, but that makes it so easy to scapegoat and to blame and to have a lack of accountability. Because it’s like, “Oh, it’s not me. It’s them. It’s the corporation. It’s the leadership.” It’s these things that are so easy to sort of distance ourselves from. And it’s like, “No, no, no, that’s you. You individually.”
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yeah. That would be your fault. I get that, totally. Do you think most executives know that they are personally accountable, individually accountable, for DEI and A and B and all the acronyms? Like it is their job to do this, or do they still think it belongs in human resources?
Stacey Gordon:
They absolutely think it belongs in human resources. I’m reminded of a conversation where literally a CEO had a light bulb moment. It was like sitting in a meeting, there’s a CEO, the CFO, the CMO, the CHRO, all of the individuals, and their head of recruiting was also in the room. And he said something along the lines of, “Well, if they would just do their job, then this would happen.” And I said — because in my mind, what I wanted to say was, “What?” — but what I said was, “You’re absolutely right.” I said, “However, what is their job?” And we started to break down what their job was. And I said, “So it’s their job to bring individuals, introduce individuals to the organization. But whose job is it to hire?” He was like, “Well the hiring managers.” I was like, “Yeah.” I was like, “So you mean these folks in the room? The ones we’re looking at right now.” And he was like, “Yeah.” I said, “So you mean to tell me that the head of recruiting, their job is dependent on the individuals in this room to do their job?”
Laurie Ruettimann:
The hopscotch logic that people take in order to justify the status quo is really fascinating to me. So I’m with you. You’re doing the Lord’s work, and not only are you out there working with organizations, you’ve got a community, you’re out there with people, but you’re also speaking. So you’re on the road, and you’re doing that because you’re supporting a book. So can you tell us a little bit about your book?
Stacey Gordon:
Sure. So my book is “UNBIAS,” which let me just tell you every time you type it in anywhere, it will always auto correct to unbiased with an “-ed,” because “unbias,” technically, I guess, isn’t a word. But I purposely came up with that because I understand we can’t be unbiased, but our goal is to work towards it. So my thought process was like, “Hey, let’s try to unbias our behavior. Let’s try to, unbias our decision making. Let’s try to unbiased the way that we speak to one another.” Understanding that we’ll probably never get there a hundred percent, because we’re not perfect. But if we work on it, we’re going to get closer.
Laurie Ruettimann:
And so “unbias” as a verb has an actual framework in your book around how to do that. So can you talk a little bit about how we get closer to that desired state of living in an unbiased world?
Stacey Gordon:
Definitely, because let me tell you — there’s so much that has gone on in the world. So I wrote this book, interestingly enough, in 2020. I had made the decision to write it prior to George Floyd being murdered. And I was writing it right after George Floyd was murdered. And so here is this book — really what was happening, everyone was talking about action. “We have to do something. We need to be in action.” And you’ll notice, if you read the book, that the third step in the stage is action. It’s not the first. And it’s the third for a reason, because what’s happening is we’re all complaining and saying, “Nothing’s changing.” And nothing’s changing because we are all taking action that is performative. We are taking action that is not sustainable. And we are taking action that we haven’t really thought about who we’re taking action for, or why, or what it’s going to do.
We’re just really doing this “check-the-box activity.” So the idea of the framework is that we have to start with awareness. Awareness of who we are and what we bring to the table, which goes back to what I was saying in the beginning about self-awareness for leaders and why this is personal. We have to start with us, and our accountability and our understanding of what is going on around us. Then we have to get into alignment, which is the second stage, where it’s like, “OK, now I see what is happening. I’m now going to commit to some accountability. I’m going to commit some resources. I’m going to commit to making this actually happen.” And then you can go do the action.
Laurie Ruettimann:
So, that all makes sense. But there are a lot of outcomes with action. And so let’s talk about your fourth step, the fourth A, because I think a lot of people take action, and then it stops. Or the action doesn’t work the way that they had planned, and then they give up. So what’s your fourth step?
Stacey Gordon:
So the fourth step is advocacy. It is continuing, sustaining. And to your point, you will do something, it might not work. That doesn’t mean we throw up our hands and go, “Oh, well that didn’t work. We’ll just go back to what we were doing before.” It’s like, “Well, no, it means we try something else.” Or, if it does work, it also means we have to keep coming back and checking to see, is it continuing to work? Because things that we did 50 years ago in the workplace, they worked then, they don’t work now. So we have to be constantly going back and iterating and checking to make sure that what we have put in place still continues to work for our current-day workplace and not from our workplace of years past.
Laurie Ruettimann:
So we have your four steps, and although they seem simple, they are not easy. This is real work. And I’m struck by the fact that you write a newsletter that kind of describes your ecosystem and offers really great tips and ideas and talks about this methodology. But your newsletter is called Simply Diversity, as if “simple” is like the smartest choice here. But tell me why you picked that word. Why is that word important to you?
Stacey Gordon:
It’s important because we really do have to find the simple way to do something. If it’s not easy, we’re not going to do it. We have to break it down. We’ve got to break diversity down and get it to a place where there is a simple action that we can take, because it’s not about looking at the big picture. Even right now, when I think about how just awful things could be right now. Like there’s so much going on. When I sit and think about that — and I have had some moments where I’ve literally just thrown up my hands and said, “Why am I doing this? What’s the point? I’m done.”
But that’s where you get to when you don’t keep it simple, because you are so mired in the complex and all the things that you can’t solve, and all the problems that are out there and all the things you have no control over. And it’s like, no, let’s focus on the things that we actually do have control over. Let’s focus on the things we can do. The small, everyday simple, back-to-basics things that we can do.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, I would love an example of something simple and small because we are facing complex problems. We have the Justice for Jayland movement. A young man was just shot 60 times, an unarmed man, in Akron, Ohio. We are still dealing with a reckoning of George Floyd’s murder. When you wrote your book, it’s not like things are completely different two years later. Things in a lot of ways are worse for people in marginalized communities. We have a Black maternal health crisis. We have a health crisis within Indigenous communities. The world is crazy, so how do I do something simple and make things better?
Stacey Gordon:
Well, it’s really about bringing it down to, again, what can you control? So going back to your question about HR. Leaders are like, “HR should handle this.” OK, fine.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Even though HR was just garbage a couple of years ago in these leaders’ eyes, but now they want to give HR everything, but OK. So what can HR do? Something simple?
Stacey Gordon:
Well, but it’s really looking at, if we’re going to make a decision, what is that decision that you’re going to make, and how is it going to impact the people around you? So I’m about to hire somebody. And even before I even hire the person, just even in looking at, who am I bringing in to the organization as a potential to be hired, I have the opportunity to widen that. To bring in some additional people. So I’m going to do it. I have no control over whether or not the hiring manager is going to pick any of these people. I have no control over what they’re going to offer in salary. I got no control over whether they decide to sit down and say racist, stupid things to this person. I got no control over any of that. I do have control over maybe at least opening the door.
Laurie Ruettimann:
I think you’re right. When we start to look at the ground level of the things we can do every day, for years, people let their friends skip the line. And maybe they didn’t get into the building, but they at least got a chance to be in that line. We could do things like that, too. Or we could certainly recruit in a different way that attracts different types of candidates. You’re absolutely right. That they’re small, almost — this is my word, not yours — but subversive things we can do. I love that. I love thinking that we can change the status quo just by being there and being a little sneaky, a little tricky, a little, I don’t know, a little subversive. Are you OK with the word “subversive”?
Stacey Gordon:
Absolutely. And it’s so funny, because I was using it just last week with a client. I do these individual coaching sessions. And so I had so many different individuals that have gone through this, and what will happen is I coach the whole team. So I usually do the CEO and the executive team and whoever else they’ll let me talk to.
Laurie Ruettimann:
True, that is coaching.
Stacey Gordon:
But what happens there is I will get snippets of things. The HR person will tell me something, their CFO will tell me something, their CMO or their CIO. And I get these bits of information. And so what I told all of them individually, one by one, was like, “Hey, here’s my as a, personally, my little subversive tip for you: Talk to your board, have a conversation with your board of directors.” I mean, nothing wrong with having a conversation about some of the challenges that you see or things that are coming your way. And it was just so funny because all of them were like, “Talk to the board?” And it was like, “I’m just saying.”
Laurie Ruettimann:
I just love how you’re planting a seed and giving people permission to be positively disruptive. You’re not saying go out and protest. You’re not saying, alert the local news that things aren’t the way they need to be. You’re saying, just have a conversation. It could go somewhere. It could go nowhere. We don’t know, but it’s not going to get them fired, I think, is the greater point.
Stacey Gordon:
And what they find, though, when they have those conversations, is that more people are thinking like you than not. And so many times we don’t speak up because we’re like, “Oh, I don’t want to be that person. I don’t want to be this person who’s going to bring up this issue because I’m going to be standing out here all by myself on this island.” And it’s like, “No, actually you’re not on an island, but it’s very easy to feel that way when you’re not talking to other people.” Once you start talking to other people, you find that, “Oh, there’s actually strengthened numbers. There’s more of us who believe this than not.” So maybe we should be having a conversation about what now is it going to take for us to move this conversation forward and move it from a conversation to some action.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, I love this because this is good old-fashioned change management applied to diversity, inclusion, equity, accessibility, belonging, all of it. But it’s so smart because, I think, sometimes we just jump to action to your earlier point without doing any of the pre-work. And so I see that as one really big mistake, right, that we’re talking about. So, people just automatically do the thing they want to do, and they haven’t created a community behind them. There’s no buy-in. I bet there’s 15 solid mistakes that people make in this area, or maybe more. Can you give me examples of more mistakes that people make when they are well-intended — corporations, they want to go pursue a diversity agenda — but they just get in their own way. How do they do that?
Stacey Gordon:
It’s like couple things there. One of the things you said, this is change management. Our framework is based in change management principles. And so, without change management, one of the things that we put forth as a solution to the mistakes is our “Why of DEI” course, because what that does is it allows you to start to gather the information and the intel and the backup that you need in order to be able to make the case for the action that you need to take. And so some of the mistakes that we see is not doing that. It’s not making sure that you really understand why you’re doing this thing. It’s also doing the right things, but for the wrong reason, or for no reason. When I tell you — and I keep talking about the trifecta of madness that was happening, which is most people that I talked to, they’re doing one or more of these three things.
They are offering unconscious-bias education. Now, obviously, as the person who has the No. 1 most-watched unconscious-bias education course across the entire LinkedIn Learning platform, I’m excited about that. I want you to take unconscious-bias education. But I don’t want you to do it when you have no idea why. You’re just like, “Whoa, we got to do something. Take this training.” No. The second thing is, what people have been doing is, hire a chief diversity officer. All right, great. So you’re going to hire chief diversity officer to do what, exactly? You’re going to give them no resources, no power, no employees. And you’re going to have them do the very thing that you haven’t been able to do. How does that make sense?
Laurie Ruettimann:
Okay. So we’ve got two what’s the third?
Stacey Gordon:
The third is setting up a DEI committee. Everyone’s got a DEI committee. DEI advocates, DEI committee, DEIBJ, whatever you want to call it. And again, great idea, but what’s its purpose? What are they getting together to do? What’s the mandate? What’s the outcome?
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, that question of the “why,” I think, is so important. And it’s one that you address in “UNBIAS,” getting to the “why” of your behaviors. It’s something you also address when you’re out speaking. When you go out into communities of leaders, of HR professionals, I’m sure they’re positively responding to your book. And you’re a great speaker. I saw you in New York. I know you’re awesome. Do you get follow-up of people who really want to pursue the “why,” who are into this work? Or is it like, “I got your book, tick the box.”
Stacey Gordon:
I do get people, literally just this morning, I had somebody reach out to me from a top global brand and I was like, “Oh, OK,” because their head of DEI was in one of my sessions. I forget where I think it was Talent Development, maybe. It might have been SHRM, but I think it was Association for Talent Development. She came up to me and said, “This is so great. This is what we’re talking about.” And she’s like, “We need to connect.” And then I never heard from her again. And I was like, “Oh, I need to follow up with her.”
But today, someone reached out from the organization, not the same person, but that means they’re talking. They’re having the conversation, they’re circulating the information. And I actually prefer that, because it means it’s not a knee-jerk reaction. It means somebody actually went back, put thought into what they were going to do before they reached out. Which I appreciate, because so many times I sit with a prospective client, and I ask them questions, and they have no idea of the answers. They’re like, “Well, we thought we wanted to do this.” And I’m like, “Yeah. And why, and what’s it for and what are you going to do with it?” And I’m like, “Yeah, you need to probably go away and answer a bunch of these questions and then come back. And when you do, we’ll be here.”
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, I think it’s so interesting that when you go out in the world and speak, you do so with this goal of changing the world. And you and I had a conversation in New York City around how you’re still speaking within the SHRM community. Because regardless of any human resources politics or drama, you want to talk to the people who are doing the work. You want to get your message out there, and you want to see if you can get some engagements, change the world that way. Can you talk to me a little bit more about that, because so many people who listen to Punk Rock HR are like, “Screw SHRM, never again.” But you make the case that you got to be where the people are, right?
Stacey Gordon:
Absolutely, you do. You have to be where the people are. And it’s the individuals, you just never know who you are going to impact. And I will tell you every single time that I say to myself, “Ah, I’m not doing this. I don’t need to go here. This is just …” But then I will have that one conversation with somebody where it changes what they’re doing, where they will come back to me later and say, “We had that conversation, and that really helped me. And I went on and I did this thing. And so I think, again, it’s why I keep bringing it back to being simple. If I think about it in the large complex ecosystem of HR organizations and they’re just not doing enough, I would never talk to anybody in HR.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yeah. That’s my world.
Stacey Gordon:
But instead, I’m like, “No,” individually one by one, small bites of the elephant. We have to have these conversations. We have to continue, because there’s enough people that are willing to do the work, but they just need the tools in a lot of cases. And many of us, we’ve been taught to avoid these conversations. We’ve been talked to not talk about sex, or politics, or religion, but yet here we are having to talk about these things. And so the problem is we don’t have proper education or tools for how to handle the conversations that we need to have. And so rather than continue to avoid them, we have to have them, but we’ve got to have them with some education.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Amazing. Well, I want to close the conversation by talking about your awesome ecosystem, because once I started to dive in and take a peek, I’m like, “Oh, there’s content here for days.” It’s such good stuff. You offer coaching and consulting. Correct? So talk to me about that.
Stacey Gordon:
Yeah. So the coaching and consulting, mainly we do it for, like I said, the executive leaders, because they’re the ones that have got to get this. And I want to, sometimes I feel like I’m hitting my head against a brick wall, but we’re going to get there because they’re the ones that have to really get that information. And the coaching is what helps because we get to do the one-on-one conversations, where we get to really have those confidential spaces for them to talk through a lot of these strategies.
Laurie Ruettimann:
So for those people who don’t necessarily have budget or access or title and qualify for organizational coaching or consulting, you also offer a newsletter and a community out there that really focuses on diversity and inclusion and equity. So talk to me about that kind of content.
Stacey Gordon:
Yeah. So actually if you go to learn.reworkwork.com, we’ve really just tried to, like you said, we’ve content for days. So we’ve been trying to pull it all into the ecosystem. It’s not all quite there yet, but most of it is. We’ve pulled in information about the book, all the courses — everything is there, and we’ve even been putting in free learning pathways. So we’re going to keep adding more and more because people are always asking, “Well, what book should I read? Where can I learn more?” And I’m like, “Because Google doesn’t exist, apparently. So —”
Laurie Ruettimann:
Oh, it’s nice to have it served up in an organized way, which is what you’re kindly doing for your customer.
Stacey Gordon:
Yeah. We’re trying to put it on a silver platter. But having that there I think is helpful, and that’s really where you’ll find everything because you can find all of our social media from there. You can find my book from there. You can find the courses from there. And so, yeah.
Laurie Ruettimann:
I want to close by talking about your book and your LinkedIn Learning courses, because those are like true powerhouse available everywhere books are sold, if I’m not mistaken. And can you quickly sum up what your book is about? What’s the thesis?
Stacey Gordon:
So the book is really, it’s kind of the thing to help you realize you can do this, because this seems like as you said, complex insurmountable, and I promise you if we simplify it and bring it down to basics, that’s really what this book does. It brings it down to basics. You can literally read it in a couple of hours. It is not some long treatise to make it so that you’d want to read it.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, it’s delightful. I read it on a plane back from a conference. So I was really lucky to get a copy, and I highly recommend it. So we’ve got the book and then, finally, the LinkedIn Learning courses, I mean, you are killing it over there and I know how hard that is to do, so talk to me about what you’re doing on LinkedIn Learning.
Stacey Gordon:
Yes. Thank you. LinkedIn Learning, again, that space we have the unconscious-bias course. That is what people are really eating up right now. So much so that I actually went back and created a second course, which is “Unconscious Bias for Leaders.” So that specifically for, again, our leading teams, managers, people that lead others. I was like, “Watch Unconscious Bias and then watch Unconscious Bias for Leaders.” And even if you’re not a leader, watch it anyway, because it’s going to prepare you. We want growth mindsets around here. But there’s also some other things around diversity recruiting, virtual recruiting, because recruiting is a big piece of the DEI landscape. And so being able to put some pieces around that, a container around that to help, I think is also helpful.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Amazing, amazing. Well, you’re just such a delight, a wonderful guest. And I’m so glad we were able to connect. And I’ve just enjoyed this journey on learning more about who Stacey Gordon is and what she’s all about and how she’s fixing the world. So thank you for doing that with me. It was really great to have you on Punk Rock HR today.
Stacey Gordon:
Thank you. Thank you. I really appreciate being here, and anytime I can spread the word about DEI like a DEI fairy, I’m happy to do it.
Laurie Ruettimann:
There you go.
Hey everybody. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Punk Rock HR. We are proudly underwritten by The Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is the B2B marketing agency for innovative brands creating the future of workplace solutions. For more information, head on over to thestarrconspiracy.com. Punk Rock HR is produced and edited by Rep Cap, with special help from Michael Thibodeaux and Devin McGrath. For more information, show notes, links and resources, head on over to punkrockhr.com. Now that’s all for today, and I hope you enjoyed it. We’ll see you next time on Punk Rock HR.
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