Today, my guest is the man, the myth and the legend, Steve Pemberton. Steve is the chief human resources officer at Workhuman and the bestselling author of two books, including his latest book, “The Lighthouse Effect.”
In this episode, Steve and I talk about his journey from poverty to leading a top-notch HR department. We also talk about what it means to recognize and reward people in today’s talent market, and we get a small taste of working at Walgreens when the company was doing deals with Elizabeth Holmes of Theranos.
Steve is no stranger to working with big-name brands, having worked at Walgreens and Monster.com before his current position at Workhuman. For the latter two companies, Steve notes the sense of mission that both have.
“When you wake up at Workhuman, you know that something you’re doing is bettering somebody’s life. 7 million users on a platform, fostering and creating interactions. That is uplifting,” he says.
This is a special episode because it was recorded live at Workhuman Live, the flagship conference that talks about rewarding, recognizing and inherently seeing the humanness in your people. Steve is a dear friend of mine, and in our fun conversation, we are bringing the human back to work.
Punk Rock HR is proudly underwritten by The Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is a B2B marketing agency for innovative brands creating the future of workplace solutions. For more information, head over to thestarrconspiracy.com.
The Stories We Relate To
When you write a book about yourself or other people, you learn a great deal about who you are and about the world. So when Steve wrote his first book, he realized that it was an invitation to learn about other people. And with “The Lighthouse Effect,” he wanted to share the stories of those who have made him reflect at different points in his life.
“What I decided to do with ‘The Lighthouse Effect’ was share the stories of these 10 people that I met along my life journey — different stages, young boy, younger man — instances that made me pause and stop and reflect and think. And I thought that their lessons were not just instructive for me, but instructive for all of us,” Steve shares.
As a writer, Steve had to get into these people’s lives and walk alongside them during specific periods of their lives. It wasn’t just about the good parts, it was about the real story. “It’s such an honor to be with those people and their willingness to share their life with all of us, and not necessarily the beauty aesthetics. This is not the edited life on social media,” Steve explains.
The Effect and the Mission
Steve has been unafraid to shine a light on what’s considered a little dark and shameful. He recognizes and has helped others realize that those dark parts fit into the human experience. He’s highlighted these things in both books.
“‘The Lighthouse Effect’ was inspired by the ways in which we power the platforms of people recognizing each other for what seems to be the seemingly small things. You realize there’s nothing really small about any of those things,” he says. “They really do have an impact. A note of gratitude saying, ‘thank you for responding to that with such urgency.’ ‘Thanks for that spirit of teamwork.’ ‘Thanks for being inclusive.’ And those are the things that bind and bound humanity.”
Steve shares that there are multiple “epicenters of humanity” that are no longer available to us as everything has become politicized. People are questioning where they can find humanity, and the truth is, you find it by working human and bypassing the roles and titles.
“I just had a session here at Workhuman Live, and it was interactive, and so the top of mind, to me, two things that happened in that session,” Steve shares. “I was going around getting feedback from the room, and Mike says, ‘I realize, I would ask people in their work, how are they doing?’ He’s always asking them how they’re doing. ‘But I was referring to how their work was doing. I wasn’t asking them, how are you doing?’”
That takeaway represented exactly what Workhuman does every day. “I think recognition powers everything,” Steve says.
Living in a Life-First Way
The bottom line is that work has got to fit into life, and it has to make life better. The good news is that work can actually help us, instruct us, teach us. And then we can take that good stuff back into our personal lives. That’s Steve’s goal and also mine.
“You can’t be successful in any line of work without that. You don’t have the luxury of descending into dissonance and polarization, and ‘it’s not my job,’” Steve says. “You don’t have that luxury. You may feel you have that luxury in other parts of society, but you don’t, or you won’t be on the salary continuation program much longer.”
Work can’t solve everything, but it still matters how we bring ourselves to the table and what we do and say to instill trust and recognition.
“I can’t solve debates and discussions around vaccination,” Steve says, ”but I can create an environment of trust and support and recognition of my colleagues because it’s peer-driven.”
[bctt tweet=”‘When you wake up at @Workhuman, you know that something you’re doing is bettering somebody’s life. 7 million users on a platform, fostering and creating interactions. That is uplifting.’ ~ @istevepemberton. Tune in to the latest episode of #PunkRockHR!” via=”no”]
People in This Episode
- Steve Pemberton: Website, LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, “The Lighthouse Effect: How Ordinary People Can Have an Extraordinary Impact in the World” book
Full Transcript
Laurie Ruettimann:
This episode of Punk Rock HR is sponsored by The Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is the B2B marketing agency for innovative brands creating the future of workplace solutions. For more information, head on over to thestarrconspiracy.com.
Hey, everybody. I’m Laurie Ruettimann. Welcome back to Punk Rock HR. My guest today is the man, the myth, the legend, Steve Pemberton. He is the chief people officer of Workhuman and the bestselling author of two books, including the new book “ The Lighthouse Effect.” On today’s show, Steve and I talk about it all: his journey from poverty to leading top-notch human resources departments. We also talk about what it means to recognize and reward people in this crazy talent market. And finally, he gives us just a little taste of what it was like to work at Walgreens when they were doing deals with Elizabeth Holmes at Theranos.
This conversation was recorded live at Workhuman Live, which is the flagship conference that talks about rewarding and recognizing and inherently seeing the humanness in your people. So, if you’re interested in a fun conversation with a terrific guy who happens to be a dear friend of mine, well, sit back and enjoy this chat with Steve Pemberton.
Hey Steve, how’s it going?
Steve Pemberton:
It’s going well. I’m at Workhuman Live, and I’m talking with you.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Ah, so good to see you in the flesh.
Steve Pemberton:
Yes. Yes.
Laurie Ruettimann:
I mean, a treat. A couple times this year.
Steve Pemberton:
I know.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Is COVID over or what?
Steve Pemberton:
No. We may want to be done with COVID, but COVID appears not to want to be done with us in terms of these new variants. You know?
Laurie Ruettimann:
I feel these. Yeah, yeah. Scary times.
Steve Pemberton:
Yeah.
Laurie Ruettimann:
But we’re here, we’re being safe.
Steve Pemberton:
We are.
Laurie Ruettimann:
And we’re going to talk about your second book, your new book. We’re going to talk about Workhuman. Workhuman Live, all the good stuff, but why don’t you tell everybody who you are and what you’re all about?
Steve Pemberton:
So, my name’s Steve Pemberton, and I am the chief human resources officer for Workhuman. Arrived at the company at the end of 2017, after senior HR roles at Walgreens and Monster.com.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yeah. Some pretty big jobs, some good brands. Yeah.
Steve Pemberton:
Yes, yes, yes.
Laurie Ruettimann:
So, you’re at Workhuman, and it’s funny because at Workhuman, there’s quite a few ex-Monster employees.
Steve Pemberton:
12, to be exact.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Wow. Wow.
Steve Pemberton:
Yes.
Laurie Ruettimann:
What is it about the two cultures that are similar?
Steve Pemberton:
I’ve thought about that, and it is the sense of mission.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Tell me more.
Steve Pemberton:
When you wake up at Workhuman, you know that something you’re doing is bettering somebody’s life. 7 million users on a platform, fostering and creating interactions. That is uplifting. So, it’s the opposite of the tone and the dissonance that you see on social media platforms. So, all we’re doing is celebrating, recognizing, thanking, and that same spirit was true at Monster where, what did you do? You woke up every day, and you help people find a better job. So, it’s a sense of mission. And so, as a result, you attract a certain kind of human to your company because of that sense of mission. And so, it would make sense that people who were at Monster and then left Monster still have that sense of social mission, and Workhuman is a place for them to realize it.
Laurie Ruettimann:
For sure.
Steve Pemberton:
Yeah.
Laurie Ruettimann:
I think about your journey from Monster, those early days, to Workhuman, you’ve seen the development of social media, social recognition and, actually, anti-recognition on some of these social platforms, right? So, what were the early days of the internet? Like, what do you remember about that? Because Monster was so early to really having a presence, to being on the internet, to getting people to come on and look for work.
Steve Pemberton:
Well, the biggest challenges were really how people were going to process and share information. I want my resume out there in the world like that. Who sees it, who can comb through it?
Laurie Ruettimann:
Boy, we tattoo our social security numbers on our foreheads at this point.
Steve Pemberton:
Absolutely. Right.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yeah.
Steve Pemberton:
Yes. And then the meeting ground that is social media, and community, but in a different sense. So, those early internet models, it was really a marketplace. So, eBay buyers and sellers. Well, Monster was those looking to hire and those who needed a job. So, I saw so many different models of HR. During my time at Monster, I saw what to do, saw what not to do. And I think you intuit just so much of that over those years. But what I also saw, Laurie, was a really, really good example of how leadership really means so much because of what happened to Monster. New leaders came in, very different agenda, very different sense of mission. And, for me, at that time, I thought, this whole thing around leadership is overstated.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Bit of a cynic back then? Yeah.
Steve Pemberton:
I was. Because I made the mistake of thinking that as you ascend in your career, you know what it means to lead. Nobody has to really explain that to you, and what I have found is the inverse of that. Because, “oh, I must be as good as the title says I am. So, what do I have to know? What do I have to learn?” What I found, and I try to incorporate in the way that I lead my team is always asking, so what don’t I know?
Laurie Ruettimann:
Oh, I love that. Yeah.
Steve Pemberton:
And as a leader, particularly, I will confess to having a strong will, which was necessary for me. And so, I’ve learned as a leader, that you are the one responsible for creating the environment people can give you candid, open, honest feedback. And you want that so that you can make the most informed decision because there’s a natural difference to the hierarchy.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Absolutely.
Steve Pemberton:
So Laurie’s a CEO. She must be right. And you can keep saying to people, well, you can be open and you can share. And I think it’s more the leader who has to say, “I need you to disagree with me.” So the other question is I will often ask, what am I not seeing?
Laurie Ruettimann:
Oh, I love that question because it tells people you’ve got blind spots. It gives them permission to say, “OK, here it is. Let me share it with you.” And there’s no ill-fated consequence for me. I’m not going to get in trouble for telling you.
Steve Pemberton:
Exactly.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yeah.
Steve Pemberton:
And when you look at faux pas, and there’s these collapses of industries of maybe an investment in a specific product, marketing plan, something, right? And then you do the post-mortem, and you know what you find? Somebody knew.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Oh, they always know. Yeah.
Steve Pemberton:
Yeah.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Enron, everybody knew at Enron. Right? You know?
Steve Pemberton:
Yes. Yes.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yeah, absolutely.
Steve Pemberton:
And they knew with the Challenger disaster, they knew that those O-rings would freeze at a certain temperature.
Laurie Ruettimann:
They did.
Steve Pemberton:
However, those opinions were so deep down within the organization, there wasn’t an environment where you could share candid, open, honest feedback, which always surprises me.
Laurie Ruettimann:
But what they learned from the Challenger explosion and so many other disasters is that the premortem, the asking the question of “what don’t I know? What are we missing? How am I going to fail?” is the thing that prevents failure and gives you a competitive advantage. So, I love that. We are so aligned on that.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Okay, so you have this crazy ending to your career at Monster, right, with a new leadership team and you’re off to Walgreens.
Steve Pemberton:
Right.
Laurie Ruettimann:
And Walgreens goes through dramatic transformation. What was that like to lead in HR, in that environment?
Steve Pemberton:
Well, Walgreens, 90% brand recognition, street corners all across America, had never had a layoff in its history. Some of it’s the nature of retail. And as we go through this phase and this process of dealing with the disruptive nature of e-commerce in margin erosion, because we can buy things online, and they come to the house, and so I don’t have to get out as much. So, that affected all retailers and absolutely affected — one of our responses to that was to broaden our footprint globally. So, Walgreens acquired Boots Alliance, which is, in essence, Boots Alliance was the Walgreens of Europe, pretty much.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yeah. Oh yeah. Everybody who’s been to London knows Boots.
Steve Pemberton:
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And so to go from a 125,000-person company operating in one country to over 250,000 operating in over a hundred countries, when you look at just the entire footprint of businesses, it was such a major transformation, and there was shifts and changes in leadership, too.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Were you there during the Theranos time, as well?
Steve Pemberton:
I was. Yeah.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, that’s nutty.
Steve Pemberton:
Oh, it was beyond that. And it’s all still instructive about following one’s instincts. And I remember the early discussions about that, and I still remember talking to — [don’t] remember what Richard’s exact title was at the time — all the buzz, you know, top hundred leaders in the room and talking about Theranos there and just everybody’s really excited. And so I remember talking, and the contingent was going out to the West Coast to visit, comes back, and I said, “Richard, how was the meeting?” And I can still remember his reaction. He was like, “Ah, it was OK.” But then he said this very telling comment. He goes, “I have some questions.”
Laurie Ruettimann:
Dude, I wish you would’ve followed up on those questions, because the journey instead is to get hyper-competitive and get caught up in ego with CVS and Safeway. And it was almost like this race to just get in, get in on this thing that turned out to be a lie.
Steve Pemberton:
Yes. You know that what also was happening at Walgreens at the time, and still is the case now, but especially then, Walgreens’ success was attributed to what was called the four-way test that drove all business decisions.
Laurie Ruettimann:
And what is that?
Steve Pemberton:
Is it fair? Will it advance the goodwill? Is it beneficial to all? And those were guide decisions. Should we do it because that would not be fair? Will it advance the greater good? And you always step through those kinds of things. But clearly, there should have been, in addition to those four, there probably should have been another about making sure that you follow the path of due diligence, generally, in any leadership organization.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yeah. “Is it a fraud?” I think, is a great question. Yeah.
Steve Pemberton:
Yes.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yeah.
Steve Pemberton:
And here’s what I mean by that, is that, we were always asking that, but I realize that in partnerships you want to be partnered with those who have their version of the four-way test.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Oh, absolutely.
Steve Pemberton:
Well, is it fair? Is it beneficial to all? Will it advance? One of those questions. And it’s clear now that there was none of that.
Laurie Ruettimann:
No, none at all. Fascinating. So you take all of this life experience, and you come to Workhuman, an organization that’s really transforming recognition. Saying, thank you. Recognizing the human at work. When you came here, the company was Globoforce. If I’m not mistaken.
Steve Pemberton:
Yes, correct.
Laurie Ruettimann:
So, you led them. You led your organization through a brand transformation, renaming. COVID. You wrote a book while you were here. You’ve written two books, if I’m not mistaken, while being here.
Steve Pemberton:
Yeah.
Laurie Ruettimann:
So, what’s your career journey been like here?
Steve Pemberton:
Well, following that same path of like social mission, so for me, worked in higher education, then in helping people find jobs, then in health care at Walgreens, and so there was a path of —
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yeah, I see it.
Steve Pemberton:
— wanting to be in roles that had some kind of social impact. Right?
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yeah.
Steve Pemberton:
And at the same time, I was at Walgreens, I was finishing up my first book, which was my coming-of-age journey. I wrote about growing up in foster care, very turbulent, very difficult childhood experience. Get out of it, get to college, graduate, and then go looking for my biological family, and I find them. And so that was a story I was trying to tell. And I thought, and I still remember that book arriving in the mail, and I remember thinking, “Yeah, I’ve done that. I’ve done that. Right. Great. I’ve done that.” So, I thought it was the end of it.
Laurie Ruettimann:
No.
Steve Pemberton:
Wrong, it was the start of it. And so I think it’s true for any of us, you share a journey, and what you don’t realize is really an invitation for people to share their journeys with you.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Absolutely.
Steve Pemberton:
And so that, to me, became, and still is, a daily exercise in recognition because people write to me from all over the world, and they do so every day.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Amazing.
Steve Pemberton:
I’m not exaggerating. Every day.
Laurie Ruettimann:
No, I believe that.
Steve Pemberton:
Every day, I have somebody who read the book, saw the film adaptation of the book, read the young reader’s version. And so it just got me to thinking about, what would that look like if I were going to write another book. And I took a long time for me to kind of process it. So, what I decided to do with “The Lighthouse Effect” was share the stories of these 10 people that I met along my life journey — different stages, young boy, younger man — instances that made me pause and stop and reflect and think. And I thought that their lessons were not just instructive for me, but instructive for all of us.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, when you write a book, whether it’s a book about yourself, about your journey, about other people, I have found that in writing the book, I learn so much. So much about myself. So much about the world. What did you learn about yourself while writing “The Lighthouse Effect”?
Steve Pemberton:
It put me in very specific places with these 10 people. So, as I’m writing their stories, I’m literally with Rick Rock when he’s 16 years old, when his father passes away from a sudden heart attack on Father’s Day, and he doesn’t know what to do. And it spurs him to a life in medicine, goes to medical school because of it. And he says, “I never want to be in a situation where I don’t know what to do,” because he didn’t know what to do. I’m in the South Tower with Welles Crowther, when a plane strikes and he finds his way to safety, and then stops and goes back up to try to save as many people as he can and perishes in the process. You’re kind of with him thinking what he was thinking because that’s, as a writer, you have to dive into somebody’s life like that.
I’m on the Vietnam battlefields with FL Kirby. I’m with Carmen Ortiz-McGhee as she meets her father for the first time. I’m with my benefactor, John Sykes, who took me in when I was 16 years old, I had nowhere to go, took me in just three days after Christmas, and who was battling the beast of addiction that is alcoholism. At the very time that he is, you’re in that battle with him. And it’s such an honor to be with those nine people and their willingness to share their life with all of us, and not necessarily the beauty aesthetics, this is not the edited life on social media.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Right. This is real-world stuff. Yeah. Yeah.
Steve Pemberton:
Tough stuff. That, that, Laurie, everybody navigates.
Laurie Ruettimann:
There’s this theme throughout your career of shining a light, things that may be a little dark, maybe even be, might be a little shameful, and recognizing these are totally human experiences. You did it in your first book, telling your own story. You’ve done it in this book, your new book. And I just wonder if that’s some of the work that also Workhuman does? I mean, work can be tough. It can be hard. We’re there to solve complex problems, and we’re trying to recognize the human in that, right here at this organization. So, I see this theme. You must see it. I’m not a therapist.
Steve Pemberton:
Oh, of course. No, no. I mean, in fact, I would take it a step further and say that I probably would not be at Workhuman had I not written that book, the first one.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Oh interesting. Yeah.
Steve Pemberton:
And certainly, “The Lighthouse Effect” was inspired by the ways in which we power the platforms of people recognizing each other for what seems to be the seemingly small things. You realize there’s nothing really small about any of those things. They really do have an impact. A note of gratitude saying “thank you for responding to that with such urgency.” “Thanks for that spirit of teamwork.” “Thanks for being inclusive.” And those are the things that bind and bound humanity. And we’ve learned that from the pandemic that when those things are taken from us, it forces us into places of isolation. We do feel disconnected, and so you’re trying to — and Laurie, I also think that when so many of the epicenters of humanity are no longer available to us, where do you find healing? Do you find it in our politics? I would argue. No, we don’t.
Laurie Ruettimann:
No. Heck, no. Yeah.
Steve Pemberton:
Do you find it in academia? Do you find it in the church? I would argue that even debate seems to have been politicized. Everything’s politicized. So, where do you find humanity? It’s in the workplace and by working human. So, it’s not about the title. It’s not about the role. I just had a session here at Workhuman Live, and it was interactive, and so top of mind, to me, two things that happened in that session. I was going around getting feedback from the room, and Mike says, “I realize, I would ask people in their work, how are they doing?” He’s always asking them, how they’re doing? “But I was referring to how their work was doing. I wasn’t asking them, ‘how are you doing?’”
Laurie Ruettimann:
Oh yeah.
Steve Pemberton:
And that was his takeaway. So, that’s what we do at Workhuman. So, “how are you doing?” I think recognition powers everything. And if you look at the HR ecosystem, recruiting, retention, promotion, isn’t recognition at the core of all of it, is it fundamentally?
Laurie Ruettimann:
Absolutely. And as we move towards this life-first way of living instead of a work-first way of living, work has got to fit into life. Work has got to make life better, and work can actually be the place where we go to learn how to live a little better. I mean, I think like so many institutions have failed us. Work is that last institution that can actually help us, instruct us, teach us. And then we can take that good stuff back into our personal lives. That’s my goal. That’s what powers me. I know that’s what powers you.
Steve Pemberton:
Well, you can’t be successful in any line of work without that. You don’t have the luxury of descending into dissonance and polarization and “it’s not my job.” You don’t have that luxury. You may feel you have that luxury in other parts of society, but you don’t, or you won’t be on the salary continuation program much longer.
Laurie Ruettimann:
100%. 100%.
Steve Pemberton:
So, you can bring your own political views about something. You can bring — those are things that you manage and you navigate through in the course of getting a team together and executing a job. I think what you can immediately touch — so, I can’t solve debates and discussions around vaccination, but I can create an environment of trust and support and recognition of my colleagues because it’s peer-driven.
Laurie Ruettimann:
For sure. And it softens the political differences anyway. They kind of fade away, at least, in the moment. And that’s good enough for me, from time to time. Like, if I can have five minutes where I’m not thinking about masks, I’m going to treasure those five minutes, you know?
Steve Pemberton:
Oh, yeah.
Laurie Ruettimann:
So, that’s how I feel. Well, I have one final question for you as we wrap up the conversation. You’ve written two great books. You’ve got a film adaptation of your first book, got this amazing career here at Workhuman, but what’s next? Like, where are you going? What are you going to do? Like a vacation? How about that?
Steve Pemberton:
No, no. That is my wife’s battle with me is that I don’t ever slow down. I don’t know how.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Hmm. Got to take your PTO.
Steve Pemberton:
Yeah. I’m not built for it. I’ve just accepted that. But I was at a conference some time ago, and someone reading about my life/career journey asked me, would you change anything? And I thought, “No, because I like how it’s all turned out. It’s been pretty cool.” But I was almost, like, reflecting aloud. And I said, “Being an ’80s kid and a huge fan of ‘Back to the Future,’” I said, “there’s times that the man that I am wishes I could go back and talk to the boy that I was, to let him know that he’s going to be just fine. No matter how dark the day gets, and there were a lot of very dark days, that not only will he be fine, but he wouldn’t want to change any step of it.” So, that’s what I was thinking aloud. And I said, “But I would still want to go back, but not to save me. It would be to see whether or not I could alter the path and the trajectory of my parents’ lives, knowing what was going to unfold for them without telling them who I am.” Because now you’re into deep stuff, right, Laurie, now you’re in there.
Laurie Ruettimann:
I was just thinking about the butterfly effect. You want to make sure you don’t disrupt your own life, but yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Steve Pemberton:
Right, right, right. Right. So, in an ideal world, that’s what’s next.
Laurie Ruettimann:
So, that’s what’s next, working on the time machine, time-space consortium-
Steve Pemberton:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Space-time continuum is the word I’m looking for.
Steve Pemberton:
That’s right. That’s right. That’s right. That’s right.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, Steve, it’s always a pleasure to catch up. And remind everybody, where can they go to learn more about Workhuman and more about your books?
Steve Pemberton:
So, you can learn a ton more about Workhuman at workhuman.com. If you’ve not been to Workhuman Live, which is where we are, it is life changing. And then me, anything that’s social media. You can find me on LinkedIn, stevepemberton.io because I have a site that allows me sort of respond to people who are interested in my own career journey.
Laurie Ruettimann:
We’ll put it all in the show notes. It was so good to see you again.
Steve Pemberton:
I know. And the same.
Laurie Ruettimann:
I know, it’s really fun. Thanks again for being a guest. Anytime and every time.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Hey everybody, I hope you enjoyed this episode of Punk Rock HR. We are proudly underwritten by The Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is the B2B marketing agency for innovative brands creating the future of workplace solutions. For more information, head on over to thestarrconspiracy.com.
Punk Rock HR is produced and edited by Rep Cap with special help from Michael Thibodeaux and Devon McGrath. For more information, show notes, links and resources, head on over to punkrockhr.com. Now that’s all for today and I hope you enjoyed it. We’ll see you next time on Punk Rock HR.