Today, my guests are Joey Price and Lars Schmidt, good friends of the show who you may have heard on past episodes. Today, they are here to talk about my favorite subject—what the heck is going on with SHRM?! For those not in the know, that’s the Society of Human Resource Management. They fired off a tweet that made many people unhappy just in time for Black History Month.
In this episode, we discuss that tweet, the future of work and human resources, and where an association like SHRM fits into the evolving HR space. This conversation is between three friends passionate about human resources and the esteemed institution SHRM. Still, we are honest about the reverence and disappointment that we hold for them.
So if you are ready to hear an honest take on the ups and downs of loving an organization like SHRM and what the heck is going on, then sit back, relax, and enjoy this fun conversation.
Punk Rock HR is proudly underwritten by The Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is a B2B marketing agency for innovative brands creating the future of workplace solutions. For more information, head over to thestarrconspiracy.com.
SHRM…What Did You Do?
When it comes to SHRM, we HR people all have a “more love than hate relationship” with the organization.
A hashtag that says #FixItSHRM was recently created, referring to a recent tweet released by SHRM featuring a graphic focused on improving DEI at work. Unfortunately, the photo used severely lacks diversity. To make matters worse, this incident happened right at the start of Black History Month.
This incident isn’t the first time, either. Similar issues with the organization were brought up in the past. However, the most recent tweet still holds a certain shock level for many people—including Joey, “It did surprise me that it’s 2022, of all the things we’ve gone through in the past few years about diversity and the reasons why diversity is on the forefront for a lot of minds and a lot of employers, for the largest body of HR to get it wrong, that was surprising.”
Lars shared a similar sentiment. While he doesn’t hate SHRM, he is “incredibly disappointed by them.”
DEI has been at the forefront for many companies. With the rise of social injustice and discrimination in the workforce, people want to see organizations genuinely put in the effort to change. “For the field of HR who has been through so much in the last two and a half years to have a “governing body” that just doesn’t seem to put in the effort, is just incredibly disappointing,” Lars shares.
It all boils down to relevance. Unfortunately, SHRM has not shown they are up-to-date with modern HR teams and functions. Because of this, Lars believes that “they’ve lost a whole generation of operators that they’ll never get back,” disappointing HR professionals working to create actual change.
Getting Criticism on Criticism
SHRM has half a million member HR professionals in its ranks and is profitable for the first time in years. They are hitting all of the benchmarks for success. So when they see criticism online, their first thought is to criticize that criticism. But that approach begs the question, “Is all of this is necessary?”
More and more organizations are stepping up to become a venue where HR professionals can connect, share, and grow in the ways they want and need. SHRM is no longer the only resource available to HR professionals. “SHRM might say that a tree is falling in Twitter and is not making a sound, but the industry is saying otherwise. And I think the topics that are being covered in places like Lars, what you’re covering and your cohorts, and Laurie, what you’re doing on your show, are topics that we aren’t seeing SHRM cover. We’re not seeing analytics, AI, agile HR. We’re not seeing those sorts of things that are really what business leaders are looking for from HR,” Joey says.
The world of HR is changing, and SHRM’s tweeting incident seems to suggest that the organization isn’t in tune with the macro conversations currently happening in the HR space. “The world of work is changing, and HR has an opportunity to directly shape and influence what this looks like,” Lars explains. “We’re building kind of a new post-industrial revolution era of work, and we’re still getting articles on SHRM about dress code. Yes, that might be petty of me to kind of call them out on that, but I remember that came out in Q4. It was just like, how out of touch are you talking about tattoos at work?”
While many voices in the Twitter-verse tweet out different sentiments of criticism, there is truth to what they are saying. “We may be voices in Twitter, and they may say what they’ll say, but I think we’re onto something, and where there’s smoke, there’s fire. And again, we all love SHRM. So we want to see it win. It’s an institution. It’s not just the people in it; it stands for something. It means something. Just want to see it relevant in the years to come,” Joey says.
What Can Be Learned
SHRM has an opportunity to learn and grow, but that can’t happen without first changing the dialogue and putting diverse voices within the organization.
“I don’t think they’ve got the right voices steering where they’re going. I think that again, there’s a huge population, particularly on the leading modern, progressive wing of HR, that has nothing to do with SHRM. And so even if they were speaking to SHRM, SHRM’s certainly not listening to them,” Lars shares.
While putting new voices into the organization will help drive change, listening to what others are saying can create a modern future for the organization. “SHRM prides itself on being the voice of HR. And I think right now, it should be the ears of HR. Listening to what folks on Twitter are saying, what industry is saying about HR,” Joey says.
SHRM’s efforts to listen to what people are saying means connecting with them without just brushing off the criticism. “It would really be reaching out to some of those leaders who are on the cutting edge, bring them in for round tables, maybe evaluate board positions and content ideas and see what can be done to guide the conversation as opposed to being reactionary to it,” Joey says.
[bctt tweet=”‘SHRM prides itself on being the voice of HR. And I think right now it should be the ears of HR’- @joeyvpriceHR. Listen in to hear Joey and @Lars’ thoughts on the recent SHRM tweets on #PunkRockHR!” via=”no”]
People in This Episode
- Joey Price: LinkedIn, Twitter, linktr.ee, Business, Life & Coffee podcast
- Lars Schmidt: LinkedIn, Twitter, Amplify website
Full Transcript
Laurie Ruettimann:
This episode of Punk Rock HR is sponsored by The Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is the B2B marketing agency for innovative brands creating the future of workplace solutions. For more information, head on over to thestarrconspiracy.com.
Hey everybody, I’m Laurie Ruettimann. Welcome back to Punk Rock HR. My guests today are Joey Price and Lars Schmidt. They are friends of the show. They’ve been on episodes before, and we will have all of their contact information in the show notes. But they’re on today to talk about my favorite subject; what the heck is going on with SHRM? That’s the Society of Human Resource Management. And to kick off Black History Month, SHRM put out a tweet that a lot of people didn’t like. And so we talk about that on today’s episode, along with the future of work, the future of human resources and where an association like SHRM fits in.
What you’re about to hear is a conversation between three friends who absolutely love human resources. We are nerds for it. And you’re also going to hear our love for the esteemed institution that is SHRM. Baked in this conversation is affection and real reverence, and also disappointment. And it’s an honest take about the ups and downs of loving an organization like SHRM. So like I do every week, I want to invite you to sit back and enjoy this really fun conversation with Joey Price and Lars Schmidt where we ask and answer, what the heck is going on at SHRM? Hey guys, welcome to the podcast.
Lars Schmidt:
Hey Laurie. Good to be here.
Joey Price:
What’s up, Laurie? Hey, Lars.
Lars Schmidt:
Joey, good to see you on, man.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Oh my God. I’m so glad to have you both here. Listen, we’re going to talk about all things interesting to the human resources community, but we’re going to start with my awesome parking spot today outside of Costco. Did you guys see that online? It was one of the best parking spots I’ve ever had in my life. Joey, I know you saw it.
Joey Price:
I did. I did. I liked it on Twitter. I wanted to hear the story about it when we hopped on the pod. So you got to catch us all up.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, I can’t remember Shakespeare, but I can remember some of the best parking spots I’ve had in my life. And I pulled into Costco today, and it was right there, right by the carts. Right by the front door. And I went, oh my God, this is so epic. It beats the parking spot that Ken and I got at the Chinese lantern festival in 2018, which is also epic. I’m serious. I remember these boss spots. So I don’t know. Am I crazy, Lars? Do you ever remember good parking spaces?
Lars Schmidt:
I don’t, but I do know that you can never go to Costco again because you can’t beat that. You’re retired. You’re done. Your Costco trips are over.
Joey Price:
It’s all downhill from here.
Laurie Ruettimann:
That’s true. That’s true. I should go out and buy a lottery ticket. That’s my feeling. And then I went to Torchy’s Tacos and also got an awesome spot. So I am on cloud nine. I almost don’t want to talk about this topic today, but we have to do it. We have to talk about what the heck is wrong at SHRM. So which one of you wants to give the backstory on SHRM? Why are people pissed off at that organization? Who wants to get started?
Joey Price:
Maybe there’s a disclaimer here to go out is I think we all have more of a love relationship than a hate or a what the crap’s going on relationship with SHRM. And we’re just using a platform to share our thoughts for those who will listen and maybe bring some awareness so we can bring change. My thing with #FixItSHRM, or I guess that’s the hashtag that people are using on what’s going on right now, is we jumped out of the gate with Black History Month in a very, not so great way. There was a graphic that came up, and it was all about how to improve DEI at work, inclusivity at work, and there’s no diversity in the photo in the stock image. It was all white people.
Laurie Ruettimann:
So Black History Month, this is happening. But you know, Joey, it’s not like this is new. Issues with SHRM have been brought about online for many years. I don’t know. Did it surprise you when you saw that?
Joey Price:
What surprised me is that it’s 2022 as the leading body for HR and all things work, and this is how we’re jumping out of the gate. Whoever created the graphic, approved it, ran it, saw it up for 24 hours and didn’t do anything about it until they took it down. It leads me to believe that maybe there aren’t the appropriate reflection of diversity within that social media department, or the diverse voices in there don’t have the power, influence or authority to say, hey, I think we messed this up, or we might mess this up. So it did surprise me that it’s 2022, of all the things we’ve gone through in the past few years about diversity and the reasons why diversity is on the forefront for a lot of minds and a lot of employers, for the largest body of HR to get it wrong, that was surprising.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Lars, what do you think about all that?
Lars Schmidt:
I certainly wouldn’t say that I hate SHRM at all. I’m just incredibly disappointed by them. And the disappointment is endless. It’s like the incident to kick off Black History’s Month. It wasn’t surprising because they’ve been careless with how they’ve messaged so many things. I remember even going back following in the near aftermath of George Floyd’s murder two years ago, and they put out a statement that was really blue lives matter-y in the context. Didn’t say anything about supporting the needs of black employees. It talked about police and how they’re on the front lines. And it was so tone-deaf for the moment. And so for me, I hold them to account because the field would be better served if they did better, if they cared, if they listened, if they seem to really be making an honest attempt to make changes and take this feedback to heart that they’re getting.
And yeah, people will come at them on social media, but it’s because they’re just pissed. They’re just so disappointed that yet again, it’s another misstep and another misstep. And for the field of HR, who has been through so much in the last two and a half years, to have a “governing body” that just doesn’t seem to put in the effort, is just incredibly disappointing. So I think that that’s a feeling that a lot of people have. And really, ultimately, it’s the point where relevance is a big question, and I just don’t don’t know how relevant they are to modern HR teams, to modern HR functions. I personally don’t know anybody in my network who goes to their events, goes to their conferences. They’re just not a part of that conversation, and they haven’t tried to be. And so I think they’ve lost a whole generation of operators that they’ll never get back.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, I want to push back from moment because the argument is if a tree falls in the forest or on Twitter, does it really make a sound? And SHRM will say, well, we’ve got what? Half a million HR professionals on our rolls and we’ve got money, and we’re profitable for the first time in a billion years, and look at us, we’re great. And they almost see the criticism online as disingenuous and also from a ragtag group of bloggers like it’s 2009. People who don’t know what they’re talking about and who are basically talking to themselves in an echo chamber. So I don’t know. What do you guys think about that criticism of the criticism?
Joey Price:
I think what we’re seeing is a lot of other organizations stepping up to become the place that HR pros gather and where HR pros learn. I can rattle off at least three or four names of HR vendors who are building very successful communities of HR pros, of building successful communities of not only, hey, learn our tool, but also learn the industry. And obviously, there are competing certifications and questions about the relevancy of certifications, to begin with. So SHRM might say that a tree is falling in Twitter and is not making a sound, but the industry is saying otherwise. And I think the topics that are being covered in places like Lars, what you’re covering and your cohorts, and Laurie, what you’re doing on your show, are topics that we aren’t seeing SHRM cover. We’re not seeing analytics, AI, agile HR. We’re not seeing those sorts of things that are really what business leaders are looking for from HR.
And so, it’s not to say that they can’t mobilize their strategy to cover those things. But it’s just not top of mind right now. So we may be voices in Twitter, and they may say what they’ll say, but I think we’re onto something, and where there’s smoke, there’s fire. And again, we all love SHRM. So we want to see it win. It’s an institution. It’s not just the people that are in it. It stands for something. It means something. I just want to see it relevant in the years to come.
Laurie Ruettimann:
I don’t know, Lars. What do you think about that? And I do want to say, the criticism of the criticism to me is a bit disingenuous. So I bring that point of view to this, but I don’t know. Where do you stand?
Lars Schmidt:
I think Joey raised a great point around some of the kind of macro conversations and trends that are happening in HR right now. We are in such a pivotal moment for not just HR but the world of work. The world of work is changing, and HR has an opportunity to directly shape and influence what this looks like. We’re building kind of a new post-industrial revolution era of work, and we’re still getting articles on SHRM about dress code. Yes, that might be petty of me to kind of call them out on that, but I remember that came out in Q4. It was just like, how out of touch are you talking about tattoos at work? [crosstalk 00:09:12].
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, wait a second now. And I do want to push because for many practitioners out there, they are still dealing with some of these “bread and butter” issues around tattoos and appearance, not understanding how they speak to the larger issues around bias and all the isms, but that’s another story for another day, but they’re dealing with it. So SHRM serves its members, and it’s almost like this ecosystem exists because that’s what the members are asking for. So is it SHRMs fault?
Lars Schmidt:
I think it goes back to something you said earlier around by SHRM’s measure of their own success. They’ve never had more members. They’ve never had more revenue. That’s what they’re about. And if that’s your barometer for success, absolutely, they’re very successful. I hold them to a different standard. I would like to see them charting the conversations around HR’s role in this new world of work. And to me, they’re advocating that, and that is a huge let down for the industry. And so again, it’s like everybody has their own litmus test of what do you consider successful? And by those standards, they’re very successful. I measure them differently. And by my standards, they’re falling short. I’m sure they don’t care that they’re falling short of my standards, and that’s fine, but that is why I tend to hold them to account and call them out on things like that Black History Month post because they just should do better. It’s embarrassing.
Some of the stuff that they put out…it’s just embarrassing for the field. It just shows no intent, no care. And especially in some of these topics that are delicate topics that are deeply meaningful to many people and should be advocated heavily by this governing body, for them to come out with that and leave it hanging out there for 24 hours before they deleted it. Again, it’s a small symbol, but it’s reflective of a much bigger issue.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yeah. I feel you on that. You know, there is something that I just want to stick with for a second around this notion of criticism because, on the one hand, SHRM wants to dismiss it as just a bunch of rogue people who don’t want to pay their dues, who hang out on the internet all day long. I have started thinking about it in a different way. It’s very easy to jump on Twitter and criticize, and it’s hard to actually do the work.
And I remember Malcolm Gladwell talking about the Arab Spring, and one of the things that pushed people out into the streets was the fact that governments in Tunisia and Egypt shut off the internet. And when they cut off mobile phone access, people had no choice but to get out and to mobilize. And change for a brief moment started to happen in those countries. And I just wonder what y’all think of people who jump on the fix-it SHRM hashtag but don’t do the work. And frankly, I see it in myself. I’m always asking myself, am I fair? Am I just jumping on a bandwagon, or do I mean what I say, and am I acting on it? So I don’t know. Do either one of you have any thoughts on this?
Lars Schmidt:
When you talk about broad usage of a hashtag, that could be anybody. I’ll take it back to its origin. It was started by Victorio, and when he created it, it came from a place, much like I said, I don’t hate SHRM. I’m just deeply disappointed. I want them to do better. Victorio wanted them to do better. He wanted them to demonstrate ethical leadership, and he held them to account. And I think that for people who have that same view, the actions that are shown time and time again tend to be deeply disappointing, and people want to express that.
And again, I’m not well-versed in everybody who uses the hashtag. But a lot of the conversations that I’ve seen are people who are actually trying to push for change. And they’re trying to elevate conversations that need to be elevated. They’re trying to create dialogue around the topics that HR practitioners need to be talking about and thinking about. And so I think that does come from a place of not just throwing a hashtag and criticizing because it’s easy, but the people who I see who are often using it are people who are out there doing the work and trying to make a difference for this field because they have a passion and affinity for the field.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, we talked a little bit about a potential future state for SHRM that’s involved in the conversation around the future of work. What does that optimal state look like, and can we get there? We certainly have a leader in place who has a POV of that organization, but no leader is forever. And hopefully, the institution will continue to grow and thrive. So I don’t know, Joey. What does the future of work and the future of SHRM look like to you?
Joey Price:
SHRM prides itself on being the voice of HR. And I think right now, it should be the ears of HR. Listening to what folks on Twitter are saying, what the industry is saying about HR. It’s great to have conversations about dress codes and tattoos, but the tactical things that are going to drive organizations forward don’t just stop at, are you doing a virtual holiday party or not? So it would really be reaching out to some of those leaders who are on the cutting edge, bring them in for round tables, maybe evaluate board positions and content ideas and see what can be done to, as Lars said earlier, guide the conversation as opposed us to being reactionary to it.
We’re in a space now where there’s no bigger topic among executive leadership than people. And that’s at the small business level, that’s at enterprise, that’s in government. People is the number one topic that folks are talking about. And so having more depth to the conversation that’s coming out and not just for the purpose of content, keeping up with the content churn, is something that would be important. So I think just listening to what folks are saying and figuring out how to be on the forefront of the conversation about the future of work.
Laurie Ruettimann:
I like it. Lars, what are you thinking?
Lars Schmidt:
Wow, it’s tough to follow that. I think Joey nailed it in his points. The only thing that I would kind of wonder…I love Joey’s idea about not being the voice of HR but being the ears of HR, but I don’t think they’ve got the right voices steering where they’re going. I think that again, there’s a huge population, particularly on the leading modern, progressive wing of HR, that have nothing to do with SHRM. And so, even if they were speaking to SHRM, SHRM’s certainly not listening to them. They’re not connected in any way. They’re just moving on, and they’re gravitating towards some of these other new communities and grassroots communities. Whether it’s the roots of a place like HR Open Source or Hacking HR or HR Evolution, kind of seating the community-oriented roots, I think those are coming up everywhere now. And you’re seeing those overseas, you’re seeing them here.
When you look at the evolution of HR, we’ve moved away from some of these silo black box ways of thinking that everything’s proprietary. We don’t share anything. We’re embracing open source at scale now. And so you’re so many people just taking it amongst themselves to create their own peer groups where they’re sharing, and they’re passing leads, and there’s no paywall, nobody cares about revenue or subscribers. I don’t know how you will ever take those people and then say, no, SHRM has something for you. I think that that whole population is lost.
Laurie Ruettimann:
You know, when I worked at The Starr Conspiracy, my colleague Brett Starr taught me that associations were created as a mechanism to sell things to people. So whether it’s the NRA or the Chamber of Commerce, or the National Candy Association, the association may exist to lobby and do work around legislation. That certainly happens. But it mostly exists to sell these people things. And so I wonder if we’re even being honest about why SHRM exists. And going forward, I don’t know. What do y’all think of that model? Had you heard that before?
Lars Schmidt:
It gives an indicator of what the motivators are. And again, they’re not a charity. But you can be revenue-based and profit-based and still have charitable components to how you operate and how you think. My big break with SHRM happened at the beginning of the pandemic when I was building out some open-source coronavirus support resources because I realized we’re in a once-in-a-generation thing that nobody’s ever been through, and literally, lives are dependent on HR getting this right. And they had resources behind their paywall that they wouldn’t open. And they said, no, these are for paid members only. And at that moment, I was like, okay, I’m done. If ever there is a moment to kind of set that profit approach and driver to the side and do what’s best for the industry and society, that was it. If you can’t meet that moment, I have no faith that the current institution can meet any of these broader moments that we’re facing right now.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, Joey, as we start to of wrap up the conversation, I know you’re focused on the future of work, and you’re having amazing conversations. You’re doing great things in the world of human resources, supporting businesses. Tell me, are you optimistic about the future of HR, and what do you want people to know about the work you’re doing right now?
Joey Price:
I’m very bullish on the future of HR and, more importantly, the future of people. I think the more that we lean into the human element of work, the greater outcomes that we’ll see, not only in our work product but the relationships that we have with one another. The whole conversation of DEI, the whole conversation of equity, the whole conversation of better work engagement has to do with how we’re treating people. And I think that as we pursue growth, success, agility, as we pursue the future of work and what’s changing, it’s going to be important that we get these relationships right and we get performance management right. And we have those conversations, not just, can someone show up with tattoos or can they show up with a dress code? So the future of work is very strong, very positive. There’s a big need for HR because we’re the referees of the future of work, but we’re also the coaches too. So having that unique vantage point for the worker in the HR space is exciting.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, Lars, take us out. What are you thinking about work, HR, life? Where’s your head at these days, and does any of it relate to SHRM?
Lars Schmidt:
I’m incredibly excited. I’ve never been more excited about our opportunity to have a lasting and transformative impact on-again, reshaping the world of work. This isn’t just. Can you do stuff remotely? Can you do this? This is how we work, where we work when we work. How we prioritize things like mental health, how we embed building inclusive and equitable organizations throughout our people systems. All of the people operating systems, all of that, these are seismic things that are happening, and they’re changing, and we are on the front lines of all of this. So I’ve never been more bullish. To Joey’s point, you’ve defined it for me so I can repeat it again. I’ve never been more bullish on the future of our field.
SHRM will have a role in it, of course. They’re a force. They’ll continue to be a force. They’re not necessary in the future that I’m envisioning in terms of that leading edge. The HR sector is very broad, and there’s some people at the leading edge, and there’s some people that are still working under constructs of a decade ago, and that’s reality. And so, I think they will continue to serve a population that maybe isn’t in a position to kind of really shape that leading edge. But I don’t know that we need them to chart that new path. I think there’s plenty of people doing that. There’s plenty of organizations. There’s plenty of grassroots areas doing that. And I’m excited to watch that evolve.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, I’ll just wrap this up by saying that my dream for SHRM is to be a bridge. Not everybody has the privilege or the budget or the opportunity to work in leading-edge organizations or to be exposed to really brilliant ideas. And wouldn’t it be great if SHRM could adopt more of a learning model versus an advertorial model where they’re just selling a magazine, selling a conference, selling vendor space? So that’s my hope for SHRM, and that’s my dream for that organization. And I’m really glad you were both here today to talk about them, and I’m sorry it took a really terrible graphic about Black History Month to bring us together to have this conversation. But I’m glad we did it. Joey, if people want to find more out about you and your new podcast, tell them where they can go.
Joey Price:
Yeah. You can follow me online at joeyvpricehr. I’ve got a new podcast. We’re about 13 episodes in called while We Were Working. It’s practitioner advice of things that we’re seeing while we’re working and while you were busy. So, consultative advice as well as topics that you need to know. And you can reach out to my organization at jumpstart-hr.com.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, we’ll have all of your good stuff in the show notes. And Lars, you’re HR famous. You’re famous. So people know who you are and what you’re all about, but where do they go?
Lars Schmidt:
Oh boy, everything’s at amplifytalent.com. So you could just go there. I’m on Twitter @Lars if you want to engage there. But check out Joey’s new podcast. I’m excited to do that too.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yeah, I think that’s great. Well, guys, thanks for being guests on Punk Rock HR.
Lars Schmidt:
Thanks, Laurie.
Joey Price:
Thanks, Laurie.
Lars Schmidt:
See you, Joey.
Joey Price:
See you.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Hey, everybody. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Punk Rock HR. We are proudly underwritten by The Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is the B2B marketing agency for innovative brands creating the future of workplace solutions. For more information, head on over to thestarrconspiracy.com. Punk Rock HR is produced and edited by Rep Cap with special help from Michael Thibodeaux and Devon McGrath. For more information, show notes, links and resources, head on over to punkrockhr.com. Now that’s all for today, and I hope you enjoyed it. We’ll see you next time on Punk Rock HR.
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