Finding Cooperation in Competition With Betterworks’ Dustin Clinard and UKG’s Mike May

Can two companies with similar product solutions work together to help customers excel at workforce performance management? The answer is yes!

My guests for this episode are Dustin Clinard, vice president of strategic partnerships at Betterworks, and Mike May, vice president of the UKG tech partner program at UKG. In this conversation, we’re talking about the unique partnership between ‌these HR tech companies, the trends affecting HR tech buyers and the future of performance management.

Punk Rock HR is proudly underwritten by Betterworks. The world’s most dynamic organizations rely on Betterworks to accelerate growth by supporting transparent goal setting, enabling continuous performance and learning from employee insights. Betterworks is on a mission to help HR leaders make work better. Discover how they can help you by visiting www.betterworks.com. 

Working Toward a Common Goal

When you’re a software company looking for growth ideas, you might not immediately think about collaborating with your competitors to serve the same audience. But Betterworks and UKG have found an opportunity in complementing each other. “UKG has a performance solution, but Betterworks is unique, has some different capabilities, and we want our customers to have options,” Mike says.

This relationship isn’t always easy for salespeople to adjust to, but both companies have found that customers love the partnership. “If they’re already working with Betterworks or there’s something that Betterworks does better than our own solution, we’re OK with that,” Mike says.

Betterworks’ thinking has evolved from avoiding areas where UKG already operates to asking how the customer can benefit from Betterworks in conjunction with UKG. “And so part of the learning curve for us is knowing more about the parts, the parts that you have,” Dustin says, “and then we can get into the customer: ‘I love this, I love that, UKG’s really great here. I could see Betterworks plugging in here.’”

The Changing Landscape for HR Tech Buyers

As HR tech has grown and evolved, it’s become more complex and encompasses more types of technologies and more buyers. Even when the buyer is in HR, they’re looking through the lens of the manager and employee for tools that’ll help them do their jobs better.

“And so I think the world of HR tech that supports either productivity in the business, happiness or wellness in the business, a feeling of belonging in the business — those are the types of technologies that are starting to coalesce to create a better environment for everybody, company and people,” Dustin says.

In addition, the pandemic asked more of HR and HR tech solutions, whether it’s the mobile-first solutions employees can use anywhere or the need to build a better employee experience. 

The technology itself has become less siloed, too. “The ability to integrate and have API connections between platforms, so that data just flowed seamlessly, just became even more critical and just improves efficiency, as well,” Mike says.

Getting Performance Management Right 

In 2021, UKG acquired the business development company Great Place To Work. Since that acquisition, Mike has gained a better appreciation for how performance goals help organizations function well and deliver a great employee experience.

“The mindset is, how do you not be too prescriptive so that those goals provide direction but aren’t necessarily telling someone how to get the job done? Empowering them to do it, but having those tracked where it’s a broad stroke and point them in the right direction,” Mike says.

Part of getting performance management right is to use ‌tools like Betterworks and UKG to rethink performance. Dustin notes how the pandemic happened just a few months after many employees set annual goals. In a traditional performance model, those goals would have remained the same even as the world changed overnight.

“In a new world, in this [performance] model, the ability to stop doing something and pick up on something better is a very good decision,” Dustin says. “And that’s a sign of great performance. You just have to have a way to allow for that and then to recognize that.”

People in This Episode

Dustin Clinard: LinkedIn, Twitter, Betterworks website

Mike May: LinkedIn, Twitter, UKG website

Transcript

Laurie Ruettimann:

Punk Rock HR is sponsored by Betterworks. The world’s most dynamic organizations rely on Betterworks to accelerate growth by supporting transparent goal setting, enabling continuous performance and learning from employee insights. Betterworks is on a mission to help HR leaders make work better. Discover how they can help you by visiting Betterworks.com today.

Hey everybody, I’m Laurie Ruettimann. Welcome back to Punk Rock HR. My guests today are Dustin Clinard of Betterworks and Mike May of UKG. Both gentlemen are focused on technology partnerships, so they work for their respective organizations trying to find ways to be cooperative while being competitive. And so today, I’m having them both on the show because Betterworks and UKG have a partnership to work together. Their technologies are compatible, and they’re partnering together to make sure that the world of human resources has options when thinking about how to enable better performance within the workforce.

So if you’re an HR technology nerd like me, or you have big ideas on how performance enablement is at the core of all the good stuff in the world of human resources, well, sit back and enjoy this conversation with Dustin Clinard of Betterworks and Mike May of UKG on this week’s Punk Rock HR.

Hey gentlemen, I’m so happy to have you both here today. Dustin, since you’re up first on my screen, why don’t you tell everybody who you are and what you’re all about?

Dustin Clinard:

Sure. Thanks for having us, Laurie. I really appreciate it. I’m Dustin Clinard, I run the partnerships team at Betterworks, which is performance enablement software that helps connect the dots between goals, conversations, feedback across teams. We partner with UKG, and I’m really happy to be here with Mike.

Laurie Ruettimann:

Well Mike, since your name’s been brought up in this conversation, why don’t you tell us who you are and what you’re all about.

Mike May:

Thanks Laurie. So I’m Mike May. I’m the vice president of a tech partner program at UKG. We work with a number of great partners, like Betterworks, that extend our capabilities, help us and our clients solve more problems, deliver more value.

Laurie Ruettimann:

Well, you both are two veteran, esteemed corporate professionals, and you’re here today to talk about the crazy world that is HR tech and how we can be better at performance enablement. So Dustin, let’s start with you. It’s springtime, 2023, and I think the world of HR tech is interesting, compelling, but it’s also more complex than ever. So from where you sit, what’s the HR buyer dealing with today in the world of HR tech?

Dustin Clinard:

I’m not an HR buyer, and I’m glad I’m not an HR buyer, because the world of HR buyers is getting more complicated every day. We’re adding to one of the things that you can buy. I think what’s also happening, though, for the HR buyer is they’re looking at what’s traditionally bought by HR, but what the manager, the people managers, and what the individuals are looking at and saying, “This will help me do my job better. This will help me be more engaged in this business.” And so I think the world of HR tech that supports either productivity in the business, happiness or wellness in the business, a feeling of belonging in the business — those are the types of technologies that are starting to coalesce to create a better environment for everybody, company and people, and everything between.

Laurie Ruettimann:

Well, that’s well said. And Mike, I’ve been in the world of human resources since 1995. I was an intern. And I don’t know, I can’t quit this place. And when I was a young kid in HR, the biggest HR technology out there was a database, a system of record, and now we’ve got everything from performance enablement, to wellbeing, as Dustin mentioned, and we’re thinking about ChatGPT and all the different ways that we interact. So from where you stand, what’s the buyer dealing with these days? What does it look like if you’re the boots on the ground and you’re like, “I just want to do HR better?”

Mike May:

So a couple thoughts on that. One, COVID made the buying situation for HR a little more interesting, in the sense of it brought HR to the big table and the needs of their constituents placed as a high priority. Mobile-first is just one example, and how do you deal with employees that aren’t coming into the office every day? And so, all of a sudden, that heightened the need for HR solutions that could work in that environment. And so Betterworks is a great example of that. UKG is a great example of that, where you have mobile-first options. The second piece, I would say, is the ability to extend capabilities became important, too. The ability to integrate and have API connections between platforms, so that data just flowed seamlessly, just became even more critical and just improves efficiency, as well.

Laurie Ruettimann:

It’s funny that you talk about the ability for platforms to connect and talk to one another, because back in 2009, the word of the day was interoperability. And I feel like that is still the word of the day. And it’s interesting that both UKG and Betterworks have this unique partnership. And maybe, Dustin, you can tell us about this partnership and how the two work together.

Dustin Clinard:

Do you remember when you had to plug the cable into your computer and then restart the computer in order for it to recognize the cable?

Laurie Ruettimann:

You don’t think I do that today? Come on.

Dustin Clinard:

You may still do it. It’s not necessary as much anymore. We’ve evolved quite a bit. To interoperability — we don’t use that term quite as much — but I think the ability for a platform like Betterworks to work with a platform like UKG requires foresight and thought about what the users, what kind of reporting they want, what kind of user experience you want, where do you want certain actions to take place. And so we put a lot of effort into the, we look in the flow of work and say, “Where’s the user working? Where’s the data going to go? Who’s going to need it?” And try to build the connections that allow data to move back and forth depending on what the situation is. 

And it’s not the same situation for everybody. There’s probably a common case like, this is the way the API works in general, and then everybody has some other, “I’d like it to be slightly different.” And so the responsiveness is another factor that sets companies apart when customers are asking.

Mike May:

One thing that I think is really interesting, Dustin, about our relationship is this idea of co-opetition where UKG has a performance solution, but Betterworks is unique, has some different capabilities, and we want our customers to have options. And so being comfortable with that idea of co-opetition is an interesting play. Not everybody within UKG loves that. Sometimes our salespeople don’t love that aspect that we can sell multiple platforms, but our customers love it, because if they’re already working with Betterworks, or there’s something that Betterworks does better than our own solution, we’re OK with that.

Dustin Clinard:

As much as we’d like to think differently, the customers are the ones making the call on this, and I think we’re trying to be responsive to things like that. As you say, Mike, when we talk to somebody and they say, “Hey, we love what UKG does,” I think if we had done this a year ago, before we had partnered, we would say, “Well, we can’t do this, because UKGs already there.” What we’re smart enough now is to say, “What parts do you love?” But to ask that question, we have to know more about the parts. And so part of the learning curve for us is knowing more about the parts, the parts that you have, and then we can get into the customer, “I love this, I love that, UKG’s really great here. I could see Betterworks plugging in here.” And it gives us an angle that maybe we didn’t see before as we get to know what it is that UKG has, which it sounds so basic, but I talk to partners who don’t necessarily know what the other side has in depth as much as they do.

Laurie Ruettimann:

I find it really interesting because even the notion of customer has changed over the years. Traditionally, in HR technology, we would talk about the customer being the C-suite. We would talk about the customer being HR, and somehow managers and employees were a forgotten commodity until COVID. And then we suddenly realized we need to build these systems to be more agile, to be more flexible, and we really need to start talking to both employees and managers in the trenches about what they need in order to have better conversations, to provide better feedback. 

And I think that’s interesting about this co-opetition thing, this model that’s going on with UKG and Betterworks, because you both are talking to customers and you don’t mean that in one dimension. You talk to HR, you talk to executives, you talk to managers, and you talk to employees. So Dustin, maybe we can start with you. This new model of really rethinking the role of the customer is so cool. So when you hear about performance, when you hear about enablement, what do you hear, and who do you hear it from?

Dustin Clinard:

I think if you imagine yourself at work doing the thing you’re going to do, I’m going to sit down with somebody on my team, and we’re going to have a conversation about how things are going. We didn’t invent that. That’s been happening for a long time. It’s still going to happen with or without us. The question then is, where are they doing this? Now they’re doing it over Zoom, and if they’re doing it over Zoom and it’s on one screen, then their email’s probably right behind it. Or they got Slack or Teams on these other screens. And so you’re having this one-on-one, but you now are looking at something else. And so our approach is, can we make what you’re looking at — in Slack, or Teams, or Gmail, or Outlook — remind you when I have this one-on-one conversation, what is it that you’re working on this quarter?

Again, you were working on something even before Betterworks, but for me to remember to bring that up, to remember what you’re working on, and to remember to bring it up in the conversation we’re going to have, there’s just points for fall-off. And so when you make this in-the-flow-of-work component real, you’ve now more likely to have conversations, more frequently bring up what the current set of priorities are, which gives you a little bit more purpose and direction in those conversations. So they can drive productivity, but they also let the employee, my boss, know what I’m working on. And that’s really important, especially if I’m working on it for somebody who’s not my boss.

Laurie Ruettimann:

Absolutely. Mike, what’s your take on that? What do you hear from customers? What’s important? What matters in this ecosystem?

Mike May:

Yeah. Yeah. So UKG made a really interesting acquisition last year, when we purchased the company, Great Place to Work, just really unusual for a software company to buy a company that goes out and surveys companies and gives a seal of approval if they are or aren’t a great place to work. But we did that strategically for a number of reasons. One, as a human capital management company, it helps us understand what’s important and how our tool can help influence those things. 

And a lot of the things Dustin brought up are exactly the right areas. How do you drive engagement? How do you make sure people feel heard? How do you have your organization focused on the right objectives? And so that visibility and awareness is key. So anyways, we love having Betterworks being able to do that. We have other partnerships that help in that kind of survey understanding of employee feedback, as well.

Dustin Clinard:

Well, tying it all together, Mike, maybe it’s not day to day, but certainly week to week, month to month, quarter to quarter, do I have some loop that gets the pulse of where people’s heads are at? About their job, about the company, about what they’re working on, whatever happens to be — are the conversations that I’m having reasonable with them and adjusting frequently? So I think what we’re both saying is the whole world of an annual cycle on something — it’s a financial year. So there’s reasons to think about a financial year as a reason for an annual cycle — but a lot of the other things, there’s no reason to have an annual cycle on this. I want to know what people think now. I want to do something about it now or have a conversation about it now. And I think we’re both moving in the direction of, maybe it’s not real time, but it’s moving in that direction.

Laurie Ruettimann:

I had a conversation earlier this year with a colleague of mine who works at Slalom Consulting, and we both got to this perspective where everything old is new again, and performance management is something that I’ve been talking about throughout my entire career. Not sexy, nobody’s super-excited about it, but it’s en vogue, right now, and maybe for the wrong reasons, because we rely on performance management data to inform trends like layoffs. And I think, and my colleague at Slalom agreed, that there is a real opportunity to get performance right. Because when you get performance, you get conversations right, you get diversity and inclusion right, you get equity right. 

Performance is the core of what we’re doing. And I just wonder if you have a take on that, Mike, we can start with you. It’s almost like, does the dog wag the tail, or does the tail wag the dog, because performance is so important, but we only tend to talk about it when there’re layoffs. It’s just so very frustrating, because I think this is the year of performance.

Mike May:

I feel like that’s one thing that I’ve learned from Great Place to Work and some of their feedback is, what are the characteristics of being a company that is a great place to work? And so some of those that I’ve seen and been reinforced are things around driving trust within your organization, having transparency as a manager base, making people feel empowered. And so when you start thinking about performance goals, it’s just a tool to help in that direction. But then the mindset is how do you not be too prescriptive so that those goals provide direction but aren’t necessarily telling someone how to get the job done, empowering them to do it, but having those tracked where it’s a broad stroke and point them in the right direction.

Laurie Ruettimann:

And Dustin, I just wonder how technology can really help all of this, because technology has been the promise for years. Like, “If you just buy this piece of software, you’re going to solve performance enablement.” So I know we’re not making that kind of promise either at Betterworks or at UKG, but I think technology is part of the answer, right?

Dustin Clinard:

Well, yeah. And I would tie it together with what Mike said. We’re not, unlike in the ’70s or the ’80s, we’re not trying to stack rank so we can get rid of the bottom percentile of employees. This is a labor shortage situation. We work mostly in North America and Europe, and generally speaking, labor is at a premium. And so this is about making people who are with you happier and more productive while they’re with you. It’s the same, but it is a more positive take on performance. So how do you get that listening, and how do you enable people to be able to do that? So to something like transparency, which is to some companies, transparency is a bit of a — it’s good and it’s bad. Yeah, it’s transparent, as long as you can’t see my stuff.

And so there’s an element of, but what if we bring transparency, not about your performance review, which feels sensitive, but rather what are the big projects you’re working on? And if you break those down, what are the dependencies that you may be working on? But you might depend on other people. And then if you go up a level, if you did that project well, what does it influence high above you, or above you in the project hierarchy? And so if you break it down, you’re creating a level of transparency, which it can motivate you to fulfill your goal, but it’s not personal, that kind of transparency is the direction. I think we’re starting to see a lot of momentum there. And surprisingly, companies don’t have it. That’s the surprise to me through all this is that companies don’t have like, “Oh, let me go check my PowerPoint deck in this other file.” What?

Mike May:

Yeah, Dustin, the thing I love about Betterworks, too, is how it doesn’t turn it into like, “Set your goals at the beginning of the year, and then check them at the end of the year.” It’s this ongoing conversation throughout the year where people stay focused on that. And I think that really pushes towards that transparency and pushes toward that ongoing engagement between a manager and their employee.

Dustin Clinard:

If you think of during COVID, one of the best decisions a manager or an employee could make in April, May of 2020 would’ve been, when I set my goal in January, five months later, the world has literally flipped upside down, I should stop this thing, and I should start something else. So one of the best decisions that people throughout your business could make would be to stop doing something. And so in the traditional goal-setting framework, as you said, there’s not a lot of room for that, it’s not allowed. In a new world, in this model, the ability to stop doing something and pick up on something better is a very, very good decision. And that’s a sign of great performance. You just have to have a way to allow for that and then to recognize that.

Laurie Ruettimann:

Well, and to measure it, as well. Yeah, absolutely. Well, Mike, and we’re talking about transparency. And in an act of transparency, I sit on the board of the Workforce Institute, which is an entity of UKG. And one of the things we found in talking to customers is that they love the UKG product, but historically, not even when they were using UKG, they would start out with one system of record that was in charge of all employee data, and they would buy these other pieces of HR technology, and one wouldn’t talk to the other, and they would have to log out of one and log into the other. So what’s the promise? What’s the potential of improving the HR business partner’s life if they’re a UKG customer, but they’re also interested in the Betterworks platform?

Mike May:

A number of things. So one is, the integration’s validated, but it goes deeper than that. We actually do third-party risk reviews on every partner that’s in the program, including Betterworks. So there’s a little bit of “buy with confidence,” because we vetted the partners that are in the program like, Betterworks. Second is they get preview tenants of new releases. So when a new release comes out, they’ve already tested and make sure that nothing with the integration’s going to break. And then thirdly, they have built-in support. And so if there is a problem, the Betterworks team knows exactly who to call on my team, and we’ll get on it right away. So from a just stability standpoint, there’s a lot to be said there. And then for a new customer, the ability to deploy the integration more quickly, too.

Laurie Ruettimann:

Yeah, that makes sense. Dustin, on the other side, there may be someone who is skeptical. There are so many performance management solutions out there. So what’s the promise? What’s the opportunity in partnering if you’re a UKG customer using the Betterworks platform? What’s new, what’s different? Why would they take that extra step?

Dustin Clinard:

We are not the only, in full transparency, we are not the only performance solution in the UKG ecosystem. So customers do have a choice, which is great. While we’d love them to choose us, there are other options. It’s one word, but it’s a concept. So we have an integration right now, let’s call it V1, but you have V2 and V3 and V4. So there are other integrations that can be bolted on. And so when we think about what our customers want right now, a UKG customer wants the ability, they don’t want to have to duplicate data in Betterworks. I buy Betterworks because I like the performance experience. I don’t want to have to duplicate names and reporting structures, that’s like level one basic stuff. Level two might be, well, if people start to move departments, or somebody leaves the organization, or we bring new people on, we want that to be reflected automatically.

And so those are the types of things that make the experience for the new customer of Betterworks seamless with what they experience in UKG. In the future, there’s all kinds of stuff that you could start to think about connectivity back and forth. And for us it becomes a little bit of Einstein’s laboratory. And so rather than we have all these ideas, believe me, we have ideas, but we’re also trying to listen to customers, and we’re trying to balance what’s the cool future thing versus what’s the practical thing that they actually need now. It probably tends to be more on the practical side than on the — like, we’d love to have ChatGPT. I think we’d love it, but we don’t. None of the customers have asked for it yet.

Laurie Ruettimann:

Yeah, be careful of the future. If you get what you wish for, a lot of people cry over that. But Dustin, that’s a really cool question. And I don’t mean to put you on the spot, but where is the future of all of this headed? When we think about integrations and performance enablement and just the whole HR tech ecosystem? For me, the opportunity, the promise of this industry is to make managers their own version of HR in a very seamless, awesome, easy way. And have HR almost up-level their skills and become organizational consultants and coaches and really thinking about the strategic aspects of people in deployment. But I don’t know, where is all of this headed? What’s cool and interesting in this market and what you do?

Dustin Clinard:

I think you hit it on the head. I think it’s a manager of people, because of all of the structure and process that’s been put in place, managers can spend a lot of time not actually managing people or getting the best out of their people. They manage them, they do the administrative components of them, but have they tapped into who those people are so that they can direct them in the right direction and encourage them in the right place?

And if you think of HR’s role, HR’s job is not to set your goals. HRs role might be to make sure goals are being set, but not to set your goal. Who knows your goal, your manager might, or somewhere in that. It’s closer to that level than in HR. The best-case scenario for us is when a business brings to HR, Betterworks, “I would like to use this tool.” And the HR people go, “Holy cow, this is amazing.” Doesn’t happen every time, but it does happen sometimes. And so if you think about HR as a steward for that, but then people managers having the autonomy and the authority to truly assess performance or in that category,

Laurie Ruettimann:

For sure. Mike, what’s your take on that?

Mike May:

Yeah, we love it when partners have a road map for their integration. We encourage them not only to look across all of our platforms, because we have a couple different versions that they can integrate to depending on the target customer they’re going after, but then they’ll launch with one integration. Often it’s like a simple people import, just to make sure to the system of record that all the data’s accurate, or if someone’s laid off that they’re immediately removed so that sensitive information isn’t shared. So there’s a number of positives that come with that kind of an integration. 

But man, we encourage that full scope and ongoing investment in new capabilities. And just, as one example, would be interoperability across multiple platforms, too, where an alert from Betterworks could come into UKG that prompts the manager with an alert, but the manager could get that through Teams. So we have a relationship with Microsoft Teams, so all of a sudden they get the alert at Teams to go into Pro and update some of the notes on performance reviews.

Laurie Ruettimann:

I like the seamless way, the seamless potential in the future for managers to just work. Let’s all get back to work. Let’s stop managing all these different notifications, all these different systems and get back to doing the thing that we’re meant to do, which is aligning ourselves with our purpose and passion and hopefully making money for ourselves and other people. This is what this is all about. It’s not about HR systems and processes. That’s what I think the exciting part of this future is. 

Well, I’m so glad you both are partnering together. You’re able to do it. Dustin, why don’t you leave us with some ideas about why this is exciting, why this is relevant and why we should be paying attention to the Betterworks and UKG relationship.

Dustin Clinard:

UKG’s been a tremendous partner for us so far. They’re responsive and thoughtful. The co-opetition component that Mike mentioned, it’s real, but it’s also a really big world. The way I look at it, and hopefully Mike does, too, is there’s too much of the world right now to go after that needs both of us. We can deal with the co-opetition part. And so far, we’ve shown that really well. I think, from our perspective, one, getting our folks to know UKG more, UKG, UKG’s customers, what their products do is a big key. And then having more customers that say, “I use UKG, I use Betterworks, and I’m really happy with the way that fits together.” And so we’re on that journey, and I think it’ll continue.

Laurie Ruettimann:

Cool. Mike, your thoughts?

Mike May:

At UKG we love to say our purpose is people, and I see that proven true often. I won’t name names, but I’ve been dealing with a software company that has a really closed system, and it’s been painful. They have this one entry point, they know they have an entry point, they have a little bit of an HP printer model, which is like, “We’ll give our software away for free, but then we’re going to charge you to get access to your data.” And man, that’s such an old-world mentality and such a shortsighted perspective that I love that UKG invests in this way, which is, “Hey, Betterworks has great capabilities that we can leverage, and we think the rising tide’s going to raise all boats,” and so we subscribe to that. Our leadership understands that. That’s why the partner program gets a lot of investment across UKG, and we’ve seen it prove true. We continue to see really strong revenue and bookings growth within UKG. So we love it. We’re at 75,000 customers, and as Dustin says, it’s a big world. And so we love to help our partners be successful.

Laurie Ruettimann:

Well, as a woman who still buys printer ink, because I’m Gen X and I can’t help it, they’re still getting my money every single day. But I love the future. I love the future of tech, and I’m so grateful you were both here today. Mike, let’s wrap up with you. And then Dustin, would you tell everybody where they can find you? Are you on LinkedIn? Where should they go, and where can they learn more about UKG?

Mike May:

LinkedIn’s the easiest way to connect with me and my team. As far as UKG, lots of information about UKG just at our website, as well. So I would say if there’s anybody out there who’s looking to partner, have a relationship similar to what we have with Betterworks, probably the easiest way is just to hit me up on LinkedIn.

Laurie Ruettimann:

We’ll make sure we include all of that in the show notes. And Dustin, thanks again for number one, sponsoring Punk Rock HR and really being invested in the HR tech community. And if people want to learn more about you, about some of your amazing studies that you’ve done at Betterworks about performance enablement, where could they find you, and where should they go?

Dustin Clinard:

Betterworks.com is where you can find about the product, about our customers, case studies, product details, things like that. I’m on LinkedIn, Dustin Clinard.

Laurie Ruettimann:

I wish you both the very best. And thanks again for being guests on Punk Rock HR. 

This episode of Punk Rock HR was brought to you by Betterworks. When work is better for people, companies thrive.

If you’re interested in learning more about today’s show, you can visit punkrockhr.com. There you’ll find show notes, links, resources, and all the good stuff. Now, that’s all for today. Thanks for joining us, sharing this episode and leaving thoughtful comments on Instagram and LinkedIn. We appreciate your support, this and every week, on Punk Rock HR.