My guest for this episode of Punk Rock HR is Robert Ellis. He is the executive coach and founder of Futurosity and Coaching From Essence. Robert has nearly 30 years of experience with companies ranging from startups to Fortune 500 giants. In this episode, he explains his purpose of leading wholeheartedly, the legacy he hopes to leave and why he talks about careers as a quest.
While Robert has been a coach for nearly 30 years, his career significantly shifted about six years ago when he went through a personal and professional reevaluation. The loss of that relationship, heart complications and, most recently, a cancer diagnosis all moved Robert to refocus his business and learn how to live through these experiences.
“I was half-hearted in this relationship; I had one foot in, one foot out. I was half-hearted in the work that I did. I enjoyed my work, but I was never really committed to it. It was very transactional. I was the hired gun. I’d show up, do my thing, and leave,” Robert says. “And I realized I wasn’t creating relationships, and I wasn’t really showing up as my best self. It was very unsatisfying. And so I went, literally, on a quest to become wholehearted.”
Robert has transformed his career and personal life to be more wholehearted in everything he does. In addition to guiding leaders in transformation, he is writing two books, “Better Than You Can Imagine: Notes on Creating a Life You Love” and “Coaching From Essence: Notes on Coaching With Grace,” which will be published in 2023.
Punk Rock HR is proudly underwritten by The Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is a B2B marketing agency for innovative brands creating the future of workplace solutions. For more information, head over to thestarrconspiracy.com.
Separating Managers From Leaders
Many people think of leadership as a distinction between tactical managers and bigger-picture leaders. Robert has a different definition: Managers are for companies trying to replicate past successes, and leaders are for companies trying to be truly aspirational.
“The first thing is you have to understand: ‘What are we really doing?’ All we’re ever doing is trying to get from A to B. A is where you are now, and B is wherever it is you think you wanna go,” Robert says. “So if you’re a leader, if you’re an entrepreneur or CEO, you have some vision or some idea of where you want to take your company. And then you have to be honest about where you are, right? You have to do an honest assessment of where you are.”
Many people and companies are trying to re-create what worked in the past. Robert considers them to be on a path where they know what point B looks like. That’s OK, but it’s not leadership.
“Leadership is if you’re trying to create something that’s so aspirational, in other words, you haven’t done it before. You don’t know when you start whether or not it’s possible. It’s more ambitious,” Robert says. “It maybe takes more time or resources. It’s more complicated, and it will require more collaboration. Then you don’t really know what’s possible for you when you leave [point] A. So you’re not on a path — you’re on a quest.”
Defining Quests and Culture
Robert deliberately uses common words in distinct ways. For instance, he talks about “quests” to describe the leader’s journey. And he doesn’t think about people needing to seek permission to lead despite today’s hierarchical workplaces. Everyone has permission, regardless of job title.
“You can look at whatever your contribution is, and you can go on a quest,” Robert says. “You can say, ‘What might be possible here that could create something better than I can imagine when I start? What could be possible? Let me go on a quest and see.’”
Robert also thinks about “culture” differently — more like a set of rules. Inspired by Edgar Schein, Robert says that “culture is a set of assumptions that a group of people learn over time, as they solve problems, that work well enough to be taught to new members about how to perceive, think and feel.”
Robert shares a riddle about getting a goose out of a bottle without hurting the goose or breaking the bottle. In this case, you are the goose, and the best way is to break the rules and break the bottle to get out.
“Here’s the reason I call it culture: Because your bottle determines who’s in and who’s out, who belongs and who doesn’t, what fits and what doesn’t, what’s desirable and what isn’t, what’s possible and what isn’t, and what the future looks,” Robert says.
A Legacy for the Wholehearted
Robert has been on his own quest-like journey for the past six years. Professionally, this has resulted in things like online and in-person training provided by his company, Coaching From Essence, an upcoming free video course and two in-progress books.
Each project is part of setting his legacy, which has become more urgent since his stage four cancer diagnosis. Robert has rethought his approach to life and work. “The interesting thing is, heartbreak makes you want to die, but cancer makes you wanna live,” Robert says.
His company and his writing tie back to his determination to be wholehearted in everything he does. For Robert, that meant giving up on the idea of being at arms’ length with clients.
“I always had this idea, which I think a lot of us do, that we’re supposed to keep a certain amount of professional distance in our work,” Robert says. “I just realized that really didn’t work for me. I wanted to be in relationship with people. I wanted to work with people that I really cared about and was invested in their personal, as well as their professional success.”
[bctt tweet=”‘Leadership is if you’re trying to create something that’s so aspirational, in other words, you haven’t done it before. You don’t know when you start whether or not it’s possible.’ ~ @futurosity, executive coach and founder. Tune in to #PunkRockHR!” via=”no”]
People in This Episode
Robert Ellis: LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Futurosity website, Coaching From Essence website
Full Transcript
Laurie Ruettimann:
This episode of Punk Rock HR is sponsored by The Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is the B2B marketing agency for innovative brands creating the future of workplace solutions. For more information, head on over to thestarrconspiracy.com.
Hey, everybody. I’m Laurie Ruettimann. Welcome back to Punk Rock HR. My guest today is Robert Ellis. With almost 30 years of experience across global companies, from startups to midstage to Fortune 500 giants, Robert guides leaders to take their impact to the next level at any stage of growth. He is the coach of coaches. He is the trainer of trainers. He is someone who has gone on his own journey, from focusing on helping to develop skills within people to helping people really lean into their work and their lives with their whole hearts.
Robert is a fun guest, a super-introspective and interesting guy. And if you’re at the point in your life where you just want to think about, “How do I dream a little bit bigger? How do I move forward?” well, I want you to sit back and enjoy this conversation with Robert Ellis on this week’s Punk Rock HR.
Hey, Robert, welcome to the podcast.
Robert Ellis:
Thank you. Happy to be here.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yeah, I’m pleased to have you here. Before we get started talking about all the goodness of leadership, why don’t you tell everybody who you are and what you’re all about?
Robert Ellis:
I am Robert Ellis. I’m an executive coach. I coach leaders, and I coach the coaches who coach leaders. Most of my clients are CEOs or entrepreneurs. And then I also train coaches. I have a training program called Coaching From Essence, and I work with coaches who want to work with executives and leaders.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, I understand that you’ve got a long history with coaching in Silicon Valley, is that correct?
Robert Ellis:
Yeah. I’ve been training and coaching in Silicon Valley for close to 30 years, but my work really changed about six or seven years ago. I used to do a lot of management training and leadership training, coaching, facilitation for team buildings and things like that. Presentation skills for IPOs and keynotes and that sort of thing. But about six years ago, I went through my own sort of personal dark night of the soul where I had to reevaluate everything and I reinvented the way that I work, and I reinvented my life. The work I do now is much more professional and personal transformation.
Laurie Ruettimann:
I find it interesting when anybody who works as long as they’ve worked in one industry sees it and does a pivot. What is it that prompted that change in the way you ran your business and, essentially, the way you ran your life?
Robert Ellis:
In 2014, I had an experience of heartbreak, emotional and physical. I was in a relationship that wasn’t very healthy. It ended at the end of 2014. And then 2015, 2016, I started having heart problems. I had had atrial fibrillation. But in 2016, I had two heart operations for atrial fibrillation. Those two years were a pretty dark passage for me. It was the kind of thing where I’d wake up every morning and say, “How did this get to be my life?” because I’d created the exact opposite of everything I thought I wanted.
If you ask yourself a question often enough, you get an answer, and the answer that I got was that I was half-hearted everywhere. I was half-hearted in this relationship. I had one foot in, one foot out. I was half-hearted in the work that I did. I mean, I enjoyed my work, but I was never really committed to it. It was very transactional. I was the hired gun. I’d show up and do my thing and leave. I realized I wasn’t creating relationships. I wasn’t really showing up as my best self. It was very unsatisfying. I went, literally, on a quest to become wholehearted. How could I become wholehearted in my relationships, in my work? What would it look like if I showed up more fully as my best self and really gave my best to the work that I did and developed relationships? Over a period of a couple of years, I completely transformed my life.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, I’d love to learn a little bit more about that, but I’m just so moved by the fact that, you’re at the top of your game, you’re in an industry that has just a bevy of innovation and creativity and energy and youthfulness, and you’re half-hearted. And you’re a coach and a leader and a trainer. This is part of what you do to inspire the best in people, but yet you were stuck. I don’t know. I find that to be true with a lot of coaches. Am I crazy?
Robert Ellis:
Well, I mean, I think people are attracted to coaching because we’re all personal growth junkies. We’re always looking for that.
Laurie Ruettimann:
And everybody is broken, to be fair.
Robert Ellis:
Everybody can use some work. I am still very much a working process, but the work that I used to do was much more skills-based. It was sort of easier to show up and focus on a subset of who somebody was. I always had this idea, which I think a lot of us do, that we’re supposed to keep a certain amount of professional distance in our work. I just realized that really didn’t work for me. I wanted to be in relationship with people. I wanted to work with people that I really cared about and was invested in their personal, as well as their professional success. That meant working in a different way and having to change not just what I did, but who I was in relationship with my work.
Laurie Ruettimann:
You have this realization through physical and emotional heartbreak that things have to change, but it’s not like they change overnight, right? 2016, you recognize you need a new path. What are some of the early steps you took to set yourself up for success?
Robert Ellis:
Well, first of all, I realized that what kills you is the boredom and the loneliness. I made myself get out, This was pre-COVID. I used to do a lot of networking. I’d meet a lot of people. I’d go to events. I mean, that was good for business, but it was also good just for me personally. What happened was I have this idea, what I call being the host, which is — to be the host means to create a space for people to show up as their best selves and to do their best work. My strategy for meeting people was to be the host. I started a couple of meetup groups. One of them was called the Compassionate Leadership Project. It only met once, but about 15 people showed up.
Two of those people became my best friends for a few years and introduced me into a community of people who were — many of them were coaches and many of them were entrepreneurs. I just really worked on creating healthier relationships. That was a big part of it. The other thing I was going to say is, and you’ve probably read this: If you’re depressed, have a gratitude practice. I started a gratitude practice. There were some days when it was really pretty challenging. But then I had a realization. I think of gratitude as the beginner’s practice, gratitude where you’re thankful for the good things that happen. The advanced practice of gratitude is to be grateful for everything that happens.
I had to really do some reflecting on, “How can I be grateful for everything that’s happened to me? What can I learn from it? And how can I turn this passage, which was a very difficult passage, into something positive?” That was a big part of it, too.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, I like that next-level Buddhist, Eastern approach to looking at your life and every experience that you have as an opportunity to learn. I wonder now, when you think about your leadership style and how you train coaches, how you go out into the world, it must be markedly different. Yet the experiences you had very early on, even focusing on skills, must be a bedrock for all the work you do today, right?
Robert Ellis:
Yeah. I mean, I learned a lot in all those years of doing work. I learned a lot about leadership. I learned a lot about the challenges that leaders face. I learned a lot about the challenges entrepreneurs face. You don’t throw anything away. I built on what I already had, and I changed who I was in relationship to it. You can do lots of different things, but what really matters is how you show up when you do those things, like who are you being, not just what you’re doing. I changed my attitude. I changed my intention. I changed my relationship. And even though I do a lot of the same things, I’m getting much better results, both in my personal life and in my work.
Laurie Ruettimann:
A lot of people out there in this world of coaching and leadership have a prevailing philosophy about leadership. I wonder if you have that. Is there one way that you think about leadership today? It must be impacted by the pandemic as well, right?
Robert Ellis:
Yeah. I’ve done a lot of work with leadership. If you ask most people, “What is leadership?”
or “What’s the difference between a leader and a manager?” For example: A manager is someone who does things right, a leader is someone who does the right things. I think about leadership very differently from that. I mean, the first thing is, you have to understand, what are we really doing? All we’re ever doing is trying to get from A to B. A is where you are now. B is wherever it is you think you want to go. If you’re a leader, if you’re an entrepreneur or a CEO, you have some vision or some idea of where you want to take your company.
And then you have to be honest about where you are. You have to do an honest assessment of where you are. If you’re B, if where you want to go is not very aspirational, if it’s not very complicated, it doesn’t require a lot of resource or time or collaboration and so on, then you now can have a pretty good idea of what B is going to be. And you can reverse-engineer it and just figure out all the steps you have to take to get there from B, and work your way back to A, It’s really a project management problem. And that to me is what I call a path. If you’re on a path, then you’re a manager. There’s no judgment about that.
We’re always on a path somewhere in our lives, and every business has certain aspects of it that are path-like — that you replicate and you do over and you optimize for and then you scale. But you’re really re-creating past success. Most of us are really re-creating the past. When I coach people, and I ask them, “So what’s your B? What is it you want to create,” what most people will tell me is some version of something they already know how to do, or they tell me what I call a bonsai dream. Nothing against bonsai, I love bonsai, and they’re beautiful. But they’re beautiful miniature versions of magnificent trees.
Most people, if you ask them what they want, they will give you a beautiful miniature version of their true dream because they don’t really believe that it’s possible for them. If you’re on a path to something that’s just another version of what you already know how to do, you don’t really need a coach. You might need a manager. You could have a project manager help you do that. That to me is not leadership.
Leadership is if you’re trying to create something that’s so aspirational, in other words, you haven’t done it before. You don’t know when you start whether or not it’s possible. It’s more ambitious. It maybe takes more time or resources. It’s more complicated. It will require more collaboration. Then you don’t really know what’s possible for you when you leave A. You’re not on a path, you’re on a quest. You actually don’t want B, you want what I call B prime. You want something better than you can imagine when you leave A, because you don’t know what’s possible when you leave A. You’re on a quest. To be on a quest is to be a leader. A leader is someone who is helping a group of people navigate the unknown on their way to something better than they can imagine when they leave A. If you’re not doing that, you’re a manager, and no judgment about that.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Do employees and managers have permission to be leaders in the modern world of work?
Robert Ellis:
Well, it’s an interesting way to frame it. I don’t think about permission. Everyone has permission. Being a leader doesn’t mean you’re the CEO. You can be a CEO, and you can be very path-like. You can be an individual contributor and be very quest-like. You can be looking for possibilities. You can look at whatever your contribution is, and you can go on a quest. You can say, “What might be possible here that could create something better than I can imagine when I start[e][f]? What could be possible? Let me go on a quest and see.” Every good quest begins with a question. Wherever you are, you start with a question.
My question was, “How can I be wholehearted?” I didn’t know. That was a very personal quest, but I had no idea really what that looked like when I started. I just knew that I needed to create something better in my life, and I did. I have created much better than I could imagine at that time. I have an incredible beloved now. I love my work. I have incredible friends that I’ve made the past few years. I live in paradise. It’s a pretty good life.
Laurie Ruettimann:
You do. Well, I’m just thinking about organizational culture, and there are some organizations that are very path-like and some that are very quest-like. If I’m a quest-driven person operating in a path-driven organization — A, that’s going to be very frustrating, but I’m not going to have the permission I need, the freedom I need to go on a quest, unless it’s an individual quest or I do it within the bounds of my job description and the permission structure. Do you see where I’m going with that?
Robert Ellis:
Yes. It can be very challenging if you’re in a culture that doesn’t really fit your inclination to be more path-like or quest-like. This is one of the challenges for startups. A lot of people who work at startups don’t understand that startups are very much quest-like. As a startup, you’re looking for your path. You’re looking for things that you can then replicate and scale. You go on a quest in order to turn part of your business into a path.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Not to beat these phrases to death here, but I think there are also CEOs and leaders who hire for people to go on a quest. I just need someone to take us down this path. There’s this weird delusion that we have sometimes in running a company. Because if you’re perpetually on a quest, it can be very confusing. You can miss opportunities to grow, to scale, to mature in a profitable way. But yet there’s something about this weird cult-like guru syndrome that many leaders have that they think they want other aspirational leaders around them. I don’t know. What’s your reflection on that?
Robert Ellis:
Well, you’re absolutely right. Depending on the function, certain functions or certain tasks are more path. If you don’t have a good match between the people who are doing that work and the kind of task it is, then you run into problems.
Laurie Ruettimann:
I would imagine that cultures change as well over time, and it’s about being a student. Well, I don’t know, you tell me. What is your thought on culture, the healthiness of it, when it’s toxic? Do you just have general thoughts on that?
Robert Ellis:
Yeah. Again, I think of culture a little bit differently. If you ask most people “what is culture?” they’ll say, “Well, it’s the way we do things around here, or it’s what people do when the boss isn’t around.” There’s a slightly more academic definition, as Edgar Schein of MIT said — now I’m paraphrasing here. He said that culture is a set of assumptions that a group of people learn over time, as they solve problems, that work well enough to be taught to new members about how to perceive, think, and feel. Now, you really need to understand that because it explains a lot. The best way I think to understand it is with a riddle. Are you ready?
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yeah, I’m ready.
Robert Ellis:
Okay, here’s the riddle. You take a baby goose, and you put it in a glass bottle. You pull the head of the goose through the bottle, and you feed the goose until the goose is too big for the bottle. It’s a gruesome image, but bear with me. So here’s the riddle, how do you get the goose out of the bottle? There’s two rules. You can’t kill the goose, and you can’t break the bottle. How do you get the goose out of the bottle? I give you a clue, you’re the goose.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, I would shrink myself.
Robert Ellis:
Ah, okay.
Laurie Ruettimann:
What’s the answer?
Robert Ellis:
Some people will say put the goose on a diet, or someone will say melt the bottle, but then you cook the goose. I mean, the answer is you break the bottle. Who said you had to follow the rules?
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, wait. I mean, this is all problematic to me, because if you break the glass, if you disrupt, if you do something in terms of thinking just a little bit risky, it may be the right answer, but it may be the wrong answer for your career, for your long-term viability, for your name, for your reputation. I think this is what I was getting at around permission, because that Schein definition of culture is very interesting to me, because what I think he’s saying is culture are the rules, the rules that we teach to other people. That’s what I hear. To me, that’s not culture. Those are just rules. Why are we calling it culture?
Robert Ellis:
Well, here’s the reason I call it culture, because your bottle determines who’s in and who’s out, who belongs and who doesn’t, what fits and what doesn’t, what’s desirable and what isn’t, what’s possible and what isn’t, and what the future looks like. In that way, it’s culture. I think what you’re saying is something a little bit different. I think what you’re saying is depending on where you are in an organization or in your career, there might be things that are more advantageous or less advantageous for you as a person.
If you’re not in a leadership position, it’s difficult to be quest-like. It’s difficult to try to break the bottle of what’s possible and try to show your team or your organization that more might be possible for your team if you’re not in a position where people are going to listen to you and respect your point of view. But that’s a different issue than culture. Basically, we’re saying the same thing: The reason that’s problematic for that person is because they’re in a culture that’s a small bottle. What we want to do is get a bigger bottle where more becomes possible. It doesn’t mean that everybody in an organization is going to be on a quest or that everything you do is a quest.
Again, just to be really clear, there’s no judgment about this. You need both. You wake up in the morning, and you have your morning routine. You don’t necessarily have to innovate and do something different every morning, although there might be some benefit to that. We don’t have to be on a quest everywhere in our life. There’s some things that it’s helpful that we’re re-creating something we know works.
Laurie Ruettimann:
As you were speaking, I was thinking about how someone with your body of experience who has seen just the development of the world of work over the past 30 years must be working on multiple books to really document and codify his thinking. What’s your author status right now, Robert? Do tell.
Robert Ellis:
I have two books in the works, one that will definitely be out early next year. It’s called “Coaching From Essence,” and this is the book for coaches. I have trained coaches. When I’m thinking about what to do with my life, I always think about impact. I did a lot of work with leaders. I designed and delivered the leadership program for the global startup program at Singularity University. I really loved that because, I don’t know if you’re familiar with Singularity University, but their thing is, “What are you doing to positively impact a billion people?”
There would be 40-some entrepreneurs in the program, and I would tell them, “Listen, I’ve got you beat, because I’m going to positively impact 40 billion people because I’m going to impact all of you.” I really like working with coaches because they’re all working with leaders, and they’re going to magnify my impact. That’s the first book. The other book is called “Better Than You Can Imagine,” and that’s a book more for a general readership. That’ll be out hopefully by Q1 or Q2 next year.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, I love a title called “Better Than You Can Imagine.” I would imagine you talk a little bit about your individual journey in that book and how it’s worked out for you. Where is the year going for you? You’ve got some developments in your life right now. What’s happening in your world?
Robert Ellis:
Well, we just had our first in-person training for Coaching From Essence, about a month ago, since COVID happened. The first training was in January of 2020, then COVID happened. I did three cohorts online, which are available free for coaches on the community forum that I have. And then the in-person retreat was recorded, and that’s being edited. That’ll hopefully be up on YouTube by the end of the year or early next year. I’m making that whole course completely free.
Part of the reason for that, and not the main reason — the main reason is I want people to have it and to be able to use it and create an impact. But the other thing that’s happening in my life is I have stage four prostate cancer. For me, putting this material out there and putting these books out there is, they’re kind of legacy projects for me. I’m focused on doing that between now and Q1 of next year. And then I’ll probably be doing some more work with a leadership program.
Laurie Ruettimann:
I’m struck by how we began the conversation with a story around your heartbreak and we’re wrapping up with a conversation a little bit about the current state of your health and working on a legacy project. I just wonder how your experiences now having gone through this quest yourself changes your approach to your health issues that you’re having today.
Robert Ellis:
Well, the interesting thing is heartbreak makes you want to die. Cancer makes you want to live. The way I view it, it’s kind of back to what we were talking earlier about gratitude. It may seem like a strange thing to say, but I’m grateful for my cancer. I wouldn’t wish it on anybody, and I hope I live with cancer for a very long time. But if you want a teacher about what’s important in life, cancer is a pretty good teacher. I have learned a lot about what is important to me and how precious life is and what kind of work I really want to do. I think of it as the dark ally. When something comes into your life that you don’t want, you have to look at it and say — I did a lot of work around cancer early in my diagnosis.
I had no idea what it meant. I went through that period where, why me? Why do I have cancer? And then I realized I was asking the wrong question. I think the right question to ask is — I have cancer. That’s a fact. It’s incurable, at least right now. So the real question is, what do I decide cancer is going to mean for me? What I decided it meant was that it was a teacher, and I should pay attention to it and think about what it means to have cancer and to realize none of us know how much time we have, and none of us know how we’re going to die. I don’t know if I’ll die from cancer, I could get hit by a car. But I’ve had the in a way gift to have thought about my mortality before it’s too late.
It’s informing some of my decisions. I mean, I know it sounds strange, but I’m grateful for cancer and what I’m learning. I’m on a quest to stay alive as long as I can because I love my life.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, I’m thrilled that you spent some time today talking a little bit about leadership around self-compassion, around growth. All of these topics are just so needed right now, and I know I enjoyed it. I learned a little bit today, thought a little bit differently. I appreciate that. We’ll make sure we include all of your good stuff in the show notes. If anybody would like to learn more about you, or if you’d like to leave us with a lasting thought about your body of work, where can they find you, and what would that be?
Robert Ellis:
Well, you can find me at CoachingFromEssence.com or Futurosity.com is my site for the coaching work that I do. Futurosity is like “future” and “curiosity,” F-U-T-U-R-O-S-I-T-Y.com. The thought I would leave you with is my tagline on LinkedIn is make a list of everything you really want but think is impossible. Most of us settle. We don’t actually pursue our true dreams because we don’t think they’re possible for us.
The reason it’s called Coaching for Essence, what I mean by essence, is I believe that everybody has a natural way of being in the world that’s valuable without any real thought or effort on their part. If you create a form, if you create a life that is big enough for you to bring as much of your essence into your life as possible, that’s when you find out what’s really possible for you to create. I think that’s also the key to happiness.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, I was so moved today, and I’m going to stop focusing on the bonds I dream and think a little bit bigger, think a little bit broader. I’m really grateful for the time you spent with us today. Thanks again for being a guest.
Robert Ellis:
Oh, thanks so much for having me. I enjoyed it. Thank you.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Hey, everybody. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Punk Rock HR. We are proudly underwritten by The Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is the B2B marketing agency for innovative brands creating the future of workplace solutions. For more information, head on over to thestarrconspiracy.com. Punk Rock HR is produced and edited by Rep Cap with special help from Michael Thibodeaux and Devon McGrath. For more information, show notes, links and resources, head on over to punkrockhr.com. Now, that’s all for today and I hope you enjoyed it. We’ll see you next time on Punk Rock HR.
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