My guest today is Sarah Noll Wilson. She is an executive coach and leadership development consultant who’s been fighting the good fight of making work better for many years. Sarah is also the author of the book “Don’t Feed the Elephants!: Overcoming the Art of Avoidance to Build Powerful Partnerships.”
In this episode, Sarah and I are talking about conflict, workplace relationships, late-stage capitalism and burning it all down. Sarah is passionate about fixing work and helping people lean into their best selves. However, she didn’t start out with this focus.
Sarah’s undergraduate degree was in theater performance and theater education. Soon after, she found her way into the corporate world, where she found her passion — working with leaders to improve work. And one thing that has a significant impact on workplace culture is conflict. Sarah wrote her book as a way to reach out to “fellow avoiders of conflict” on how to effectively deal with it.
Why inspired Sarah to write this book? “When I started to get introduced to what do truly adaptive cultures look like, what are best practices, what do the best teams look like, being able to have and navigate disagreements and conflict — and I realized I’d never experienced that, either in my relationships or on the teams that I worked on.”
Punk Rock HR is proudly underwritten by The Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is a B2B marketing agency for innovative brands creating the future of workplace solutions. For more information, head over to thestarrconspiracy.com.
Having Tough Conversations
It’s no fun to be in a workplace that is full of conflict or one that is so conflict-averse that even tough conversations are avoided. Both situations ultimately result in even more conflict, making the situation worse. In her book, Sarah shares that in each situation, people must acknowledge the conflict as a first step to having important conversations.
“I think even just the act of recognizing when we’re avoiding it is a really powerful practice” because it creates the awareness needed to make a different choice, Sarah says. “And it sounds simplistic to say that awareness is the key, but if we can get better at noticing and naming for ourselves or for the team or for other people, ‘I think we’re avoiding something right now,’ then we have the moment to make a choice.”
The second step is reimagining how you approach tough conversations. Many people build up these conversations in their heads and imagine what reactions they’ll receive. They want to remove this discomfort, but that’s not possible, Sarah says. “If I’m taking a risk, if I’m speaking up, if I’m speaking out, if you matter to me and I’m telling you, ‘Hey, that hurt,’ there’s a risk there.”
“I think that acknowledging it, being able to name it, see it, and then understand that the discomfort is part of the human experience of taking risks and speaking up and speaking out,” Sarah adds.
Getting to the Root of Conflict
I’ve found that many conflicts between people seem to be about politics, organizational charts, job titles, etc., but the root cause of those disagreements is the organization itself. Sarah offers advice for how to step back and look at the bigger picture.
“I think that’s part of, for us, taking that time to just get really curious about, ‘Well, where is this coming from? And what’s actually going on?’ And that’s hard. I mean, I say that like it’s a simple practice, but it’s hard, especially when there’s a pattern of hurt or there’s a pattern of not being able to reconcile or heal or to have the kind of healthy conversations that we need to,” Sarah explains.
All of this is difficult. It’s not easy to stop yourself in the moment and wonder about the cause of conflict, Sarah says. “When I talk about curiosity, it’s not comfortable. It’s really looking and going, ‘What role am I really playing in this?’ And that’s not an easy question for us to ask, and sometimes it’s a harder question for us to answer.”
The Organization’s Responsibility in the Workplace
We often think of organizations as nameless, faceless entities, but that’s not what they are. Corporations are groups of relationships and people working together to provide services to their audience.
And when it comes to conflict, Sarah wants corporations to recognize and invest in their people. “I would love to see organizations see beyond the bottom line and the profit and the productivity and to realize that people are giving you the greatest asset, time, energy, emotions. That’s a huge thing that we’re asking of people,” she says.
She adds, “The organizations that I think are going to thrive in this new whatever, this disruptive time, are the ones who truly care deeply for their people, care deeply for them as a whole human and not just them as a worker, and then how they show up is with that.”
[bctt tweet=”‘If we can get better at noticing and naming for ourselves or for the team or for other people, ‘I think we’re avoiding something right now,’ then we have the moment to make a choice.’ ~@sarahnollwilson. Tune in to #PunkRockHR!” via=”no”]
People in This Episode
- Sarah Noll Wilson: Website, LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, ”Don’t Feed the Elephants!: Overcoming the Art of Avoidance to Build Powerful Partnerships” book
Full Transcript
Laurie Ruettimann:
This episode of Punk Rock HR is sponsored by The Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is the B2B marketing agency for innovative brands creating the future of workplace solutions. For more information, head on over to TheStarrConspiracy.com.
Hey, everybody. I’m Laurie Ruettimann. Welcome back to Punk Rock HR. My guest today is Sarah Noll Wilson. She’s an executive coach and leadership development consultant who’s been fighting the good fight for many, many years. She’s also the author of the book “Don’t Feed the Elephants!: Overcoming the Art of Avoidance to Build Powerful Partnerships.” In today’s episode, we’re talking about conflict. We’re talking about relationships. We’re even talking about late-stage capitalism and burning it all down. Sarah is a kindred spirit. She’s super-fun. She’s super-chill, is an expert communicator and someone who’s passionate about fixing the world of work. So if you want to meet someone great or learn about her new book, “Don’t Feed the Elephants!,” sit back and enjoy Sarah Noll Wilson on this week’s Punk Rock HR.
Hey, Sarah. Welcome to the podcast.
Sarah Noll Wilson:
Thanks for having me, Laurie. So excited to be here.
Laurie Ruettimann:
God, I’m thrilled you’re here. It’s amazing. Well, listen, before we get started talking about the world of work — which I know you’re interested in, you’re passionate about, you want to fix work — why don’t you tell everybody who you are and what you’re all about?
Sarah Noll Wilson:
So who I am is someone who is deeply passionate about helping people be able to lean into their best selves. I am married to an amazing, amazing gentleman, Nick. We have a fur baby, Sally. My undergraduate degree was in theater performance, theater education. And then I found my way into the corporate world, and unbeknownst to me found my passion of working with leaders. I mean, other things that people should know about me — I picked up the accordion during the pandemic, and that has become the single source of mental health care for me, in an unusual way. So, that’s a little bit about me.
Laurie Ruettimann:
There you go. Well, you’re not on the podcast to talk about your accordion skills, but we may get there if we have a few minutes. Well, first of all, you wrote a terrific book, so let’s start there. It’s called “Don’t Feed the Elephants!” What is this all about?
Sarah Noll Wilson:
This is my love letter to my fellow avoiders of conflict. I grew up in the Midwest, so very much the Midwest nice, or what I lovingly call “violent politeness,” is in my DNA. Really good at loving on people, really good at those kind of conversations, but when the heat got turned on, struggled. So the main reason I wrote the book, and what I’ve been fascinated about with this topic, is when I started to get introduced to what do truly adaptive cultures look like, what are best practices, what do the best teams look like, being able to have and navigate disagreements and conflict — and I realized I’d never experienced that, either in my relationships or on the teams that I worked on. So for the last 10 years, I’ve just been on this mission to figure out not only what can we do, but why do we avoid? That became a really interesting exploration for me is, what are the reasons that we hold back beyond the obvious?
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, being someone who’s avoidant and being married to someone who’s avoidant, I’m really fascinated by this topic because it took us like 15 years to even recognize that we were avoidant. And then it was like, “Now we’re going to have all the discussions,” and that didn’t go well, either, right?
Sarah Noll Wilson:
Right.
Laurie Ruettimann:
So if you’re in a workplace that is either full of conflict or needs to have some tough conversations and doesn’t, what in the book do you want people to know for those two audiences?
Sarah Noll Wilson:
I think the first is actually exactly what you said. I mean, I hear the pain of, “Oh, it took us 15 years,” but I think even just the act of recognizing when we’re avoiding it is a really powerful practice because we can have all the tools in our toolbox, if you will, we can have all the to-dos, but if we don’t recognize that we’re not using them, if we don’t recognize what we’re doing, we can’t make a different choice. And so it sounds simplistic to say, right, that awareness is the key, but if we can get better at noticing and naming for ourselves or for the team or for other people, “I think we’re avoiding something right now,” then we have the moment to make a choice.
And I think the other thing that I would say to that is, how we can start to approach it is — so often we build up these conversations into confrontations, right? We build up what the reaction is going to be. And I think that one of the things that I’ve learned and tried to impart is that people, they want to remove the discomfort of the conversation instead of understanding that that discomfort may always be part of some conversations. Because if I’m taking a risk, if I’m speaking up, if I’m speaking out, if you matter to me and I’m telling you, “Hey, that hurt,” there’s a risk there. And so instead of seeking to remove the discomfort — and what I mean by that is people will say, when you say, “What do you want to get better at?” “Well, I just want to be able to have difficult conversations confidently.” And when you say, “What does confidently look like,” they say, “Well, that I’m not worried about it, that it’s not hard, that it’s comfortable.”
I’m like, “Well, that’s just not going to happen.”
Laurie Ruettimann:
No, never, never.
Sarah Noll Wilson:
So part of it is I think that acknowledging it, being able to name it, see it, and then understand that the discomfort is part of the human experience of taking risks and speaking up and speaking out. And how do we not get paralyzed by that, but understand that’s part of it?
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, that makes sense to me. On the flip side, as I mentioned, there are these organizations where there’s nothing but conflict. And I don’t know about you, but I find that the conflict is usually not about the thing that’s truly wrong. People are fighting over politics and they’re fighting over what’s on the org chart and job titles, but something’s really broken in the organization. So I don’t know, what do you have to say in this book to people who are in these toxic work environments, they’re surrounded by conflict, but they can’t have the right conversation?
Sarah Noll Wilson:
And that’s such a great point that you bring up because we see that in relationships, too. And if we think of organizations, organizations are just clusters of relationships.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, with different power differentials, to be clear.
Sarah Noll Wilson:
Right, for sure. 100%. 100%. 100%, and obviously, structures, and all of that. I think to get really curious about the conflict and to understand what’s underneath it — and because the reason I say that is sometimes people will be frustrated, again, they’ll be frustrated about something and they’ll be mad about it, and they haven’t taken the time to go, “But what is it about that that’s actually frustrating me, or what is it about this person, or what is it about this situation?”
And often, if we’re frustrated with a situation or we’re frustrated with a person, it’s likely we have a value that’s being stepped on or not being honored or is in conflict, or we have a preference, “I prefer this.” And so I think that’s part of, for us, taking that time to just get really curious about, “Well, where is this coming from? And what’s actually going on?” And that’s hard. I mean, I say that like it’s a simple practice. But it’s hard, especially when there’s a pattern of hurt or there’s a pattern of not being able to reconcile or heal or to have the kind of healthy conversations that we need to. And we have to be courageous in that. When I talk about curiosity, it’s not comfortable. It’s really looking and going, “What role am I really playing in this?” And that’s not an easy question for us to ask, and sometimes it’s a harder question for us to answer.
Laurie Ruettimann:
There’s also this feeling that is totally legitimate where someone’s immersed in conflict at work, and they’re like, “Why is this my problem to solve? I’m a grown-ass adult. This is just a job. Why do I have to then step out of my comfort zone, be the one who’s like, ‘Let’s look at this’? I don’t want to do it. And frankly, I don’t get paid for it.” And I think that’s really interesting and fair at times, but I don’t know, you have to do it because you notice it, you’re an adult. It’s self-leadership. And if you want to break through it, someone’s gotta do it, and there’s no cavalry coming. That’s usually my very cynical, depressing take on that, but I don’t know, what do you—
Sarah Noll Wilson:
I have wondered, what role does our temporariness play in our relationship and our willingness at work? Now I say that with a bit of a pause, because let’s be real, we don’t always show up at our best for the relationships that are most important to us that are long-lasting. Sometimes we’re at our worst because we let down all the guards and we know, “You’re probably not going anywhere.”
Laurie Ruettimann:
And he’s going to wake up with me again tomorrow morning, at least I think, so I can be my worst self right now. It’s just temporary.
Sarah Noll Wilson:
I really love that you brought that up because I think that’s something we don’t talk about enough. Work relationships are temporary, largely, and they’re becoming more temporary. And I think that that feeds into, certainly could play a role of, “Well, how much am I willing to expend over someone that probably in a year or two, we’re not going to be working together?” And my answer to that is it’s still costing you something personally. And so, how can we do it to protect you? It might not be in service of the organization, but it’ll be in service of you and your mental health. But I think that’s an interesting place to explore is, just, the temporariness of it.
And then you brought up power dynamics. I think that is something that, if there was one thing that I would love to have people who are in positions of power and authority, managers, leaders, is just to understand how much that changes the dynamic. Because whether that’s me protecting my power. Sometimes I think we — I don’t think, I’ve observed — and we know that we avoid conflict because we’re actually protecting our power. Or other times people will get frustrated, like, “Why didn’t Laurie just say something to me?” “Well, you’re the CFO. You’re the CEO. You can fire her. Of course she didn’t speak up.” And that’s what’s coming up for me.
Laurie Ruettimann:
I was just thinking about how a lot of people don’t appreciate how work could be a practice ground for more important relationships in your life. And so, I think to myself, if I’m having a difficult moment with someone in human resources, that’s only going to make me better at addressing conflict with my mom or addressing conflict with Ken, my husband. But a lot of people don’t see it that way. And I wonder if it’s because we over-identify with work. Maybe we don’t have a lot going on in our lives, but if everything about your identity is work, how can you take a risk, how can you practice, right? It’s so important. And it really isn’t. It’s so temporary, to your point. So any thoughts on that?
Sarah Noll Wilson:
Oh my gosh, I love everywhere you’re going. I really am. I’m so excited about exploring more nuanced — because I think sometimes we can stay very surface-level and very theoretical with some of this. And so I appreciate the nuance that you’re going into.
Laurie Ruettimann:
I mean, it’s not nuanced, it’s pragmatism. I’m hardly nuanced, but I’m like, “Give me the stuff for, again, my Midwest family,” right? I, like, want to deal with this better. But I have these family members who are suddenly so passionate about the plumbing industry. I’m like, “This is bullshit. You need to work on relationships with your children, right? Don’t worry about the plumbing industry.” But plumbing can be a place where they can practice, right? I mean, I don’t know.
Sarah Noll Wilson:
So here’s what came up for me is, somebody once asked me, “Why don’t you just become a therapist? You would have steady clients. Insurance would cover it.”
And I said a couple of things. I said, “One, a lot of the people I work with don’t value, or culturally it’s scary or a risk for them to do therapy.” Not that I do therapy, but anytime I think we’re working with humans and relationships, it should be therapeutic. And I’m like, “The container of work is where we spend most of our time.” And so exactly to your point, if we can create truly meaningful development opportunities, in my heart of hearts, I don’t want you to just effectively communicate at work. I’m not interested in the bottom line. I understand that that exists. That’s the capitalist system we’re a part of. It’s not that it doesn’t matter, but I want you to then go home and communicate better with your spouse. I want you to then go home — because if we can become better, more thoughtful, self-aware, intentional people at work, then the hope would be that it translates to your relationships. And then from my perspective, and I think yours, as well, then it translates to the community and the bigger world.
And that point you bring up about our identity is I think we try to compartmentalize work so much, and we try to compartmentalize home, we try to compartmentalize work. And it’s like, we’re the same damn person. I’m the same person. Maybe I stretch in a different way. Maybe I play different notes. And I think that it is a really interesting way of thinking, and I hadn’t thought about it, of what would it look like to be more explicit with that when we’re working with team members?
I mean, I know you have done coaching and you work with leaders, and I assume this has probably come up in your work, but like nine times out of 10 when I’m working with a leader to develop stronger relationships, within two or three sessions, we’re talking about their marriage. And they’re going, “Oh, shit, I need to work on this with my spouse.”
And it’s like, “Yep, great,” because we want you to transfer learning wherever, because the more places you can apply it, the more likely you’ll embody it and be able to do it.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yeah, I’m with you. I was just thinking about how I have a rider, and many people have heard me say this, in my coaching materials, that if I think you need to seek therapy or you need to call the EAP, you do that or we don’t continue. Because so often so much stuff just comes up from a dumb corporate coaching session that’s like, “I am not qualified to help you through childhood trauma or a fight you’ve been having with your partner for the past 10 years. I can’t do it. I can barely do it in my own life, right?”
So I can address the things we need to do in the workplace. But sometimes issues just come up or they’re bigger than work, and you need the right person, the right coach, the right tool to address that. And so therapy, EAP, clergy, there are a lot of different people you can go and talk to, but for some things, that person is just not me. And I’ve learned to respect what I can offer. I think that’s been my own journey, as well. I’m not any good to you if I’m just spitballing, which is often what I did early in my coaching career.
Well, I love that we’re aligned on a lot of these things around conflict, but I just wonder, you’ve written this really amazing book. You talk to leaders and organizations about strengthening relationships. We often think of organizations as these nameless, faceless entities, and they’re not. They’re groups of relationships, they’re people. I mean, I hate to say it, but Mitt Romney was right, corporations are people, they’re made up of people, in a weird way. What is the responsibility of the corporation to the worker, to the leader, to make sure that there is a culture, there is an environment that, in as much as possible, is conflict-free and enables us to be our best selves?
Sarah Noll Wilson:
My personal philosophy is I would love to see organizations see beyond the bottom line and the profit and the productivity and to realize that people are giving you the greatest asset: time, energy, emotions. That’s a huge thing that we’re asking of people. So I mean, a couple of things: to actually truly care for the people that are in your workplace and to understand that you have this bigger impact on our larger world than I think people realize. I mean, to your point, here’s my identity, this is what I’m focusing on, and not necessarily seeing it.
And truthfully, the organizations that I think are going to thrive in this new whatever, this disruptive time, are the ones who truly care deeply for their people, care deeply for them as a whole human and not just them as a worker, and then how they show up is with that. I just posted on this because my colleague, Dr. Teresa and I, we were talking about this. And there’s all this energy spent on, “People need to leave their home at home, and we got to leave emotions at the door, and we got to compartmentalize. And we can’t bring emotions.” As organizations, we’re never having the conversations around, how do we help people transition and leave the emotions from work when they go home? We aren’t —
Laurie Ruettimann:
We don’t care about that.
Sarah Noll Wilson:
They don’t. But I think that the organizations that I admire, that I respect, are the ones that there’s more energy, there’s more resources, there’s more time and attention given to truly caring for the person. And let’s be really transparent, that’s not the majority.
Laurie Ruettimann:
No, my friend Mary Ellen Slayter and I have this ongoing discussion of whether or not you can have progressive people practices in late-stage capitalism.
Sarah Noll Wilson:
Oh, my gosh.
Laurie Ruettimann:
I mean, can you?
Sarah Noll Wilson:
Because the system isn’t designed to be people-first.
Laurie Ruettimann:
No, it’s not.
Sarah Noll Wilson:
The system isn’t, I mean, it’s designed to exploit —
Laurie Ruettimann:
It’s designed be money-first, entity-first, right, shareholder-first.
Sarah Noll Wilson:
Right, and to exploit workers and to exploit — Yeah.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yes, and Black and brown women and trans people and gay people. None of these people were part of the system when it was created. So this idea that you can have progressive people practices in most companies is kind of a joke because if push comes to shove, profit wins over people.
Sarah Noll Wilson:
It will always win.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yes, yes. So knowing that, I mean, you just said you’re optimistic, you believe in this next iteration, companies that value people, that value emotion, companies that care will win.
Sarah Noll Wilson:
I mean, in the system we’re in, that’s what I — I mean, I think we need a new system. I mean, if we’re really going there, it’s not working.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yeah, we are. It’s not working.
Sarah Noll Wilson:
It’s a dilemma. I feel that tension of the system hasn’t worked for most people for most of the time. And it’s interesting because when we see — we were recently gathering some feedback and it was really low, low, low, low, low level of trust, retaliation. And the person who was sharing sort of most fearfully was somebody who was a mid-career white man. And we just kept thinking, “If he feels this way, imagine what a Black woman feels. Imagine what a trans individual feels.”
So the dilemma for me is, this is the system we have. Even if it’s a small role, can I play in making it less harmful? I don’t say that flippantly. We were having a retreat and my colleague, Amy, she said, “When you think of the legacy of what we’re trying to accomplish, and what’s the impact that we want to make?”
I said, “I know that it’s not as powerful to move away from something as it is to move towards something.” But I said, “Honestly, whatever we can do to create practices that just reduces harm in the workplace, I just want to reduce harm.” We have tolerated, and we’ve become so accustomed to, how it is working or not really working. We’ve become accustomed to the cost. We’ve become accustomed to the expectations of who is giving more so that other people can get more.
And I think the one thing that gives me a little bit of hope is I am seeing a shift in a lot of people who I wouldn’t have before, who are starting to question the late-stage capitalism. People who are saying, “I’m literally trying to motivate people to work harder to make other people rich while they’re not actually getting.” I think part of the challenge is it’s hard to imagine what could be possible when this is what we’ve known for so long. And so that’s the dilemma for me, is the system isn’t set up to work for most people. And so, how can we reduce as much harm as we can in it?
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, I’ve been thinking a lot about this in my own life and trying to essentially reduce my footprint everywhere and consume less, just to get small. But I have the privilege of doing that. I have the privilege of downsizing my life. I have the privilege of not putting kids through college. I don’t need to participate in the capitalistic system. I hope I just can go retire at some point and scoop ice cream, right? This is my goal here. I don’t need to, for example, be on Twitter at this point in my life. I’ve proven myself, right? I’m not an emerging author at this point or an emerging individual. But I was lucky enough to be early, right, so I can opt out of this Elon Musk crazy ecosystem where he’s forcing people to go to work. He’s taking over Twitter. It’s just all bro and crypto. I don’t need any of this in my life, right? But again, these are all privileged things that I’m doing, and I’m advocating for the people around me.
I wonder what you say to new workers, to emerging leaders who have to participate in this, who have to motivate other workers or have to motivate themselves, right? What’s your message? Do you hit them with the dose of reality? Do you try to give them a little optimism? The new workers need something, but I don’t know what it is.
Sarah Noll Wilson:
I mean, it’s a great question, certainly worth pondering more because things have — I don’t even want to say they’ve changed. I think they’ve been revealed. I mean, obviously, things have changed, but I think that people are seeing things differently that were always there. We’re just looking at them differently. And again, it goes back to, for me, it’s, where’s the opportunity I have to make a positive impact? How to stay connected to something that’s bigger than what’s in front of you? What’s that really anchoring people to the impact that they want to make on the people around them, really anchoring them? When we do work with emerging leaders or people who are just fresh in, we’re not interested in efficiency, we’re interested in, how do we keep you really connected to what’s most important to you?
Laurie Ruettimann:
Which are probably relationships, correct?
Sarah Noll Wilson:
Yeah. And I mean, it’s always, whenever you ask people — a question I love to ask people is, imagine a co-worker is sitting down at the table talking to their family or friend, and work comes up and your name comes up. What do you hope they say about what it’s like to work with you? It’s always aspirational. It’s always relational. It’s always somehow adding positive value. I always make the joke, I’m waiting for somebody to say, “Oh, I want to be a micromanager, and I want them to say that I made them question themselves.”
And I think about my own journey in my early career I spent in insurance. Insurance is not sexy. Insurance is not particularly motivating. And there’s things that are questionable about how our system is set up. So for me it was, how can I make the biggest impact I can, positively, on how these people feel about themselves, what they see is possible for themselves?
I was asking a good friend of mine, Steph, recently. She does a lot of work in the space of income inequity and housing. And I said, “Knowing that’s such a steep hill and there are so, so many systemic things and human things and all of that,” I said, “What keeps you?”
And she just sort of matter-of-factly said, “I just focus on the world that I have influence over. And I just try to leave it better than I found it.” And I think sometimes that’s the place we need to come from. And we just hope that people hold onto that as they get into the bigger positions of power and authority and try to change things.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, I do want to wrap up our conversation by talking about your book and something really interesting. And that is that you considered the neurodivergent reader while writing the book, right? I mean, this is not something that many people think of when they’re constructing a book, when they’re doing the outline, when they’re writing. So you’re writing about relationships around conflict, and then you’ve got this additional layer of making sure that your materials are accessible to all different kinds of brains. So why did you do it, and maybe how did you do it? Just a little taste, how’d you do it?
Sarah Noll Wilson:
Yeah. So the real quick of why is I’m a neurodivergent brain. I was diagnosed with ADHD a number of years ago, which helped explain a lot. And when I started to formulate the book I was struggling with, “Oh, I need to be super-academic.” That was my world, is all of this. And then a good friend of mine, Shadly, said, “Write the book you would want to read.” And when he asked that, it made me realize I almost never finish books, not because they’re not great quality, not because it’s not interesting. It’s hard for me to stay focused. It’s hard for me to retain it. When it’s a lot of heavy text, it’s just hard for my brain to take in the information. I mean, this is true of accessibility. When we take care of the people who might be excluded the most, everyone gets included in that.
So we decided to design it for a neurodivergent brain. So what that looks like is intentionally using more casual language, a lot of visual breaks. My husband actually did the illustrations. And so, how do we reinforce the concepts through different emotions, whether it’s a little bit of humor, but visual cues? We use a lot of different headers and subheaders very intentionally. The goal is that it’s an easy read. Some of my favorite stories are the ones where I hear about young people picking it up. And my colleague, Theresa, her son is 12, and he started reading the book. And now he’s not neurodivergent, but he’s reading it very quickly, and he’s using it.
And we had another story where somebody’s son who is autistic, who does have ADHD, saw the book, picked it up, didn’t put it down. And I love that it was accessible to him, both from a standpoint of where he was cognitively in his development, but then he turns around, and he’s coaching Mom and Dad on how to have conversations. He’s saying, “Hey, I think we need to talk about the ‘avoidephant’ between you and dad. I think if you just asked him for what you needed.” And she was like, “Shit, he shouldn’t be coaching us, but I mean, he’s not wrong.” And so sometimes I think that we aren’t as intentional about making our work as accessible as possible for all people. And for me, it really came down to that question, the book that you would want to read, so that’s where that came from.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Amazing. Well, I really appreciate the opportunity to spend some time with you today to talk about relationships, conflict, the world of work, late-stage capitalism. Oh my God, we didn’t even talk about feminism. Goddamn it. All right.
Sarah Noll Wilson:
Next time.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Next time. Well, Sarah, if people want to get to know more about you, read the book, tell us, what’s the best place to find you?
Sarah Noll Wilson:
I mean, you can go to our website, which is SarahNollWilson.com, and learn more about the work my colleagues and I are doing. My name’s on the company, but I’m certainly not the only person in this work. My DMs are always open. I might take a little bit to respond, but I will. My DMs are always open.
Laurie Ruettimann:
I love that because my DMs are never open, so good for you for trusting the world.
Sarah Noll Wilson:
Well, I mean, it might change a little bit, so for now, as of recording this. But always love connecting with fellow humans that are just trying to make the workplace a little bit better.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Amazing. Well, thanks again for taking some time and chatting with us today.
Sarah Noll Wilson:
Thanks. Thanks for helping me.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Hey, everybody. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Punk Rock HR. We are proudly underwritten by The Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is the B2B marketing agency for innovative brands creating the future of workplace solutions. For more information, head on over to TheStarrConspiracy.com.
Punk Rock HR is produced and edited by Rep Cap, with special help from Michael Thibodeaux and Devon McGrath. For more information, show notes, links, and resources, head on over to punkrockhr.com. Now, that’s all for today, and I hope you enjoyed it. We’ll see you next time on Punk Rock HR.