Headshot of Joyel Crawford

If you’ve been with me for a while, you know that I am a huge supporter of advocating for yourself in your career and life. And my guest today, Joyel Crawford, knows a thing or two about that and about self-leadership.

She is the bestselling author of the book “Show Your Ask!: Using Your Voice to Advocate for Yourself and Your Career.” Joyel is a writer, keynote speaker, career coach and entrepreneur who has learned some important lessons in her career, the most important one to her being the art and science behind self-leadership.

In this episode, we discuss self-leadership, finding a mentor, being your own advocate, when to get a coach and when to go to therapy. Joyel is such a delight, and I hope you enjoy the conversation. Afterward, head over to her website and listen to her podcast, Career View Mirror.

If you are ready to hear two women get super nerdy about self-leadership, then sit back, relax, and enjoy this conversation.

The Starr Conspiracy

Punk Rock HR is proudly underwritten by The Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is a B2B marketing agency for innovative brands creating the future of workplace solutions. For more information, head over to thestarrconspiracy.com.

Self-Leadership Defined

Before she became a leadership development coach and expert, Joyel was not physically or emotionally in the best space. Her work was taking a huge toll, and doctors feared for her well-being if she continued on the same path. From depression and anxiety to stress-related illness that resulted in multiple surgeries, the work that Joyel was doing had a significant impact on her life until she reached an epiphanic moment.

Joyel decided that enough was enough, and it was time to take control of her life and situation. “I made a commitment to myself to take better care of myself so that I could take care of other people like my family and my friends and my clients,” Joyel shares. “So by supporting myself, by thinking about how I think and how I’m treating myself and how I’m reacting to certain things in my life, has helped me support others better.” And that is when self-leadership and accountability became a crucial part of her life.

To Joyel, self-leadership is about “being honest with yourself and not, really honestly listening to the BS that you’re telling yourself, but really just honestly seeing what you’re looking at and saying, OK, this isn’t working for me. I need to make this work better.”

RISE-ing to Self-Leadership and Accountability

Understanding self-leadership and accountability is one thing. Implementing it into your life and career is another, especially if you aren’t sure where to start. Joyel shares that asking for help when things aren’t going well is a huge part of self-leadership.

She likes to use a methodology called RISE. This method will have you reflect on what’s currently going on, identify what might be in your way, strategize how to move past the obstacle and, possibly, figure out that your most significant obstacle is you and learn what you can do to overcome yourself. 

Joyel has used the method, and she shares it with clients to help them stay accountable for their actions while also guiding them into a better life or career. The work has to start with them, however. “Again, it’s not believing your own BS. And then executing, which is the hugest part of taking my clients through self-accountability and self-leadership,” she explains.

Mentorship Through Self-Leadership

What does Joyel call the people who helped support her throughout her career and life? Those people get called Fairy God Mentor, a term that she has registered. “There’s something about having somebody to help walk you through or support you. It’s like a coach, but there’s a little extra that goes into the mentorship, almost a teaching part,” she explains. 

Without the support of her Fairy God Mentors, Joyel believes she wouldn’t be where she is right now. Their support and encouragement led her to recognize another aspect of self-leadership — how important it is to give back to people who are looking for guidance to reach their goals. “I think it’s important to just continue to share and not give a handout, but it’s just a hand up in supporting other people and grow in their lives and their careers,” Joyel shares.

[bctt tweet=”‘You need to take care of yourself. You’re the only person you’ve got,’ says @JoyelCrawford, best-selling author, keynote speaker, career coach and entrepreneur. Tune in to #PunkRockHR to learn how Joyel helps people develop their self-leadership.” via=”no”]

People in This Episode

Joyel Crawford: Website, LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, Podcast, “Show Your Ask” Book

Full Transcript

Laurie Ruettimann:

This episode of Punk Rock HR is sponsored by The Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is the B2B marketing agency for innovative brands, creating the future of workplace solutions. For more information, head on over to thestarrconspiracy.com.

Hey everybody. I’m Laurie Ruettimann. Welcome back to Punk Rock HR. My guest today is Joyel Crawford. She’s the bestselling author of the book “Show Your Ask!: Using Your Voice to Advocate for Yourself and Your Career.” Joyel is a writer, a keynote speaker, a career coach and an entrepreneur who has learned some important lessons in her life. And one of the things that’s most important to her is the art and science of self-leadership. So on today’s episode, that’s what we talk about. Self-leadership, finding a mentor, really being your own advocate, and also when to get a coach and when to go to therapy. Joyel is such a delight, and I hope that you enjoy the conversation. And then also head on over to her website and listen to her Career View Mirror Podcast, which is just absolutely terrific and one of my favorites. So if you want to hear two women get super-nerdy about self-leadership, well, sit back and enjoy this conversation with Joyel Crawford.

Hey Joyel, welcome to the podcast.

Joyel Crawford:

Thanks Laurie. I’m happy to be here.

Laurie Ruettimann:

Well, I’m thrilled you are here to talk about your book and your work and all the good things in your life. So get us started by telling us who you are and what you’re all about.

Joyel Crawford:

Well, I am a career coach. I like to say I grow leaders for a living. And I am an Amazon bestselling author of my book, “Show Your Ask.” And I am also a podcast host.

Laurie Ruettimann:

All the things. You’ve got all the things going on. Well, let’s start off with your new book, “Show Your Ask.” What is it? And who’s it for?

Joyel Crawford:

Well, “Show Your Ask” is a compilation of coaching advice that I’ve given throughout the years. I’ve been coaching people for over 20 years. It all started in HR. People wanted to find out, how did I get from one place to the next? How did I go from customer service into human resources? So I’d just show them or tell them different skills and tips. And so everyone used to ask me how I got there. And since I can’t be everywhere and coach everyone — although it’s a mission of mine to do that, coach as many people as possible — I wrote this book as a way to reach more people who were challenged with advocating for themselves and their life and their careers.

Laurie Ruettimann:

Well, one of the things you and I share is a passion for self-leadership for individual accountability. So you tell me, how do you define self-leadership, and why is it so important?

Joyel Crawford:

Well, a lot of times people consider self-care, they think about self-care as taking care of themselves. I like the term self-leadership because, before I was called to be this leadership development coaching expert, I was not in the best space or place emotionally or physically. In fact, doctors were advising me that if I continued down this path, I was going to die. Like my job was literally killing me and we know —

Laurie Ruettimann:

Wait, wait. How was your job killing you?

Joyel Crawford:

I was having so many physical symptoms, emotional symptoms. I had insomnia, I was grinding my teeth into the ground. So I had a mouthguard. I was going to therapy like two to three times a week. I was depressed, I had major anxiety, I had stress-related illnesses that resulted in surgeries within six months of each other. I had to go out on short-term disability, and I didn’t want to be like that person going out on STD, but it was really impacting how I was being able to live and work.

Laurie Ruettimann:

So you’re going through this moment in your life. And, I don’t know, did you have this epiphanic moment where self-leadership became the way for you to dig yourself out of a hole?

Joyel Crawford:

Absolutely. I remember, and it was all work stress-related. And I remember crying in pain, and I remember the sound of my cries reverberating off the walls. And I was like, why am I here? What is the reason why I’m here? I’m in such pain. It’s almost as if I heard this answer from above, like just from inside of me, saying you should never let anyone else have to go through this type of pain. You need to take care of yourself. You’re the only person you’ve got. And so I made a commitment to myself to take better care of myself so that I could take care of other people like my family and my friends and my clients. So by supporting myself, by thinking about how I think and how I’m treating myself and how I’m reacting to certain things in my life, has helped me support others better.

Laurie Ruettimann:

Well, I define self-leadership as like the art and science of individual accountability. So how do you define it, and what does it mean for you and for your clients?

Joyel Crawford:

Well, if we’re to take your definition. It’s about being honest with yourself and not really, honestly, listening to the BS that you’re telling yourself, but really just honestly seeing what you’re looking at and saying, OK, this isn’t working for me. I need to make this work better. And I think asking for help in how things aren’t going well for yourself is a huge part of being accountable and holding yourself accountable. And measuring those steps. I have this methodology called RISE, which is where you take a step back, and you reflect on what’s going on. You identify what may be getting in your way. And then you strategize some steps on how to get past that obstacle — taking those steps, maybe even figuring out that what’s going to get in your way is you, and what are those things that you can do to overcome yourself? So what happens when you get in your own way? Again, it’s not believing your own BS. And then executing, which is the hugest part of taking my clients through self-accountability and self-leadership is to execute on those goals.

Laurie Ruettimann:

I found in coaching that you’re right to your point. The person getting in your way is often you and the stories you tell. And I had this rider in my coaching clause that if I think you need therapy instead of coaching, we stop the coaching and you go talk to someone, an adviser, a counselor. How do you know when coaching is the answer and therapy is the answer. Like, how do you navigate that with your clients?

Joyel Crawford:

It is a fine line. And there are some coaches in my circle who were therapists, who moved over to coaching. My mom was a therapist for over 40 years. I have a psychology degree. My sister’s a child psychiatrist. So mental health runs in our family and support, but there are certain markers when I feel that a certain client is intentionally missing the mark. Like there’s a block that we are not able to dialogue past. Or I see how they’re not showing up to our sessions. Or they are just in a place where it’s just visibly, because I do Zoom sessions, where I visibly or can audibly hear that there’s something that’s past the point of no return. I could tell that there are some signs. I’m a person who suffers from anxiety and depression. So seeing those red flags, I don’t have a rider, but I do step in and say, I think we need to pause here. This is something that I can’t actually move forward with you for. I can’t support you in this way. I think that you need additional support from a professional.

Laurie Ruettimann:

It’s so brave when a coach does that. So I applaud when you do that, because first of all, it gets in the way of moving forward with a client. Second of all, it gets in the way of you getting paid.

Joyel Crawford:

Yes.

Laurie Ruettimann:

Third of all, it removes any forward momentum you may have been gaining with that client, and you now say, go get that momentum with someone else. But I think it shows integrity and, Joyel, I think it shows self-leadership on your part that you’re willing to do that.

Joyel Crawford:

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I think integrity is a huge piece that we never talk about in the coaching world. I think that it’s so important for us to walk the talk and yeah, money will be there, but I just don’t feel right inside taking someone’s money when I’m not supporting them and serving them in the best way. And so I feel that if I don’t lead with integrity, then it’s not really telling the client a good story. I don’t feel right about it. It just feels squishy and yucky. So yeah. Thank you for recognizing that and reflecting that back.

Laurie Ruettimann:

Well, one of the things that I’m so appreciative of that you do in this world is that you’re an advocate of mentorship. Like this is something that’s incredibly important for you. So talk to us a little bit about mentorship and some of your fundamental beliefs there.

Joyel Crawford:

I just got the term Fairy God Mentor registered because I used it all the time when I was talking about the people that helped support me as I was growing through my career — and just in life in general. And there’s something about having somebody to help walk you through or support you. It’s like a coach, but there’s a little extra that goes into the mentorship, almost a teaching part. And I do like to train and develop leaders, as well. So I think the important part of having such great mentors is I wanted to give back. There’s so much going on in your career as you’re developing and figuring things out. And you can learn it the hard way, or you can have a mentor or Fairy God Mentor to help you along the way.

And I really felt that I wouldn’t be anywhere where I am right now without the help and aid of my Fairy God Mentors. So I felt it was important to give back. And I talk a lot about it in the book about finding a mentor/sponsor, and it’s really about professionally stalking people. And if you find somebody that you’re interested in or that you admire, I’ve been professionally stalking you, Laurie. So you don’t know it, but I have been doing that, and find that you’re thought leadership has been mentoring me. And so I think it’s important to just continue to share and not give a handout, but it’s just a hand up in supporting other people and grow in their lives and their careers.

Laurie Ruettimann:

Well, I love the phrase Fairy God Mentor, because my friends call me like, everybody’s big sister, which I absolutely hate. Nobody likes their older, big bossy sister, right? So I like the idea that I am a Fairy God Mentor. I’m going to now steal that and use that, but credit you because it’s registered now. So that’s really important. That’s amazing.

Joyel Crawford:

Yes, thank you.

Laurie Ruettimann:

Well, wait, wait, I want to ask about that because there are so many people who have good ideas and don’t think to register them. So as an entrepreneur, as a leader, as a self-leader, what was registering all about like? How’d you come up with that? And what’s involved in that?

Joyel Crawford:

Well, I was actually talking to a Fairy God Mentor of mine. She was actually a sponsor who helped get me kicked off. I moved into Philadelphia, not knowing anybody. And she’s just like, “What do you need?” And I was just like, “I need a Fairy God Mentor.” And she’s like, “That’s good. You need to protect that.” And I kept using it, and she’s like, “I’m going to register it if you don’t do it.” And so her threat pushed me to go and find a trademark attorney and get it registered. And it’s a couple of hundred dollars. It’s not cheap. But the process, it’s helpful because you are putting your mark on something that I can end up branding, I could make some merch out of it. I could really monetize it. And the whole thought process of registering it came from registering my podcast title, which is Career View Mirror. I like coming up with snappy names.

Laurie Ruettimann:

Yeah, love it. I love it. A marketing maven is what you are. That’s amazing

Joyel Crawford:

Yeah. Thank you. Yes. So I think it’s so important — if you don’t know, just ask your current coaches or your friends. If you, as an entrepreneur, ask fellow entrepreneurs if they know somebody. I found that trademark attorney through a referral. And also networking is also a great way of finding the right resources to help your business grow. Stay in touch with your chambers of commerce. I’m a member of the African American Chamber of Commerce, and it’s fantastic. It’s a fantastic resource for getting all of those things done.

Laurie Ruettimann:

Well, one of the things I’m thinking about as you’re talking about mentoring and networking is the impact of COVID on all of that. And for so many people, they have not been self-leaders. Their careers have come to a standstill during COVID, and it’s fair. For a lot of people, they just can’t leave the house. They can’t engage like they used to. It’s just not physically safe for them. So are you seeing that in your coaching practice? And is that an issue, that’s something you’ve been tackling for the past couple of years?

Joyel Crawford:

The biggest thing that I found is that the isolation has been devastating for some people. And that’s where that — we were talking about earlier, those red flags of maybe you should speak to somebody more professional about that — comes into play. But also I’ve noticed people changing careers, like there’s this epiphany as we’ve been isolated, and as we have been pushed to our absolute limits working 24/7 and being a baker, a butcher, a candlestick maker, the parent, the caregiver, and the teacher all rolled into one. People are realizing, what is this all for? Why am I here? And that question is coming into play. Why am I doing this? And time is limited. So I’m finding a lot of people in transition and exploring their transferable skills and how they lend themselves to other careers. So it’s this isolation that’s kind of almost spurred some creativity in trying to find different paths.

Laurie Ruettimann:

I have found the isolation in my own life to be challenging, to be honest with you. I have found my life before COVID was busy and chaotic, and I’m traveling. And then I come back to Raleigh and everything shuts down where I live. And I’ve had two years of what has felt like Groundhog Day. And it’s really challenged me to lean into my values and say, all right, I believe that your work is not your worth. So am I living that? Turns out, sometimes I lean a little too heavily into work for my identity, and you should have fun things in your life and you should volunteer. And it was like, wait a second. I’m not volunteering like I say I should. So it’s been a real eye-opener. And also I, like you, had a career change during COVID. I became a published author, except —

Joyel Crawford:

Yes!

Laurie Ruettimann:

I couldn’t go on the road to do a book tour. So I want to know what that experience has been like for you being an author during COVID times.

Joyel Crawford:

It has been a challenge. I will not lie. And I was talking to a public relations person about pushing my book, and I talked to her, and she’s like, “You are six months behind.” I was so late in the game. I honestly didn’t know that I was going to finish the book, quite honestly, last year, much less have it published and out. But her biggest tip was, “If you feel like you’re promoting the book too much, then you’re doing it just right.”

So, again, self-leadership, hired an executive assistant to help me just do this huge mobile social media push. And now that things are kind of opening up, I’m doing a book signing next month. So like a “meet the author”-like live situation, but it was challenging. But I have such a good tribe core, I don’t know, village of people, family, friends. My book is being used in a college course. Like, it’s just the amount of acceptance and pushing it out and just being vulnerable and saying, listen, y’all, I need you to buy my book. So just showing my ask in that way was helpful in getting the book off the ground.

Laurie Ruettimann:

I love that. I mean, it’s true. Everybody wants to know how you do things, and you do things by doing them. So here you are asking people to buy your book, which is not easy as an author. We’re creative souls, we’re creative spirits, we help other people. And that sales transaction is really an ask. And you’re living it, you’re living your values. The other thing I’m thinking of is how great that book signing is going to be for you. I did my first one, it took nine months after I published my book because everybody was on quarantine, everybody’s on lockdown. And the first time I signed a book was actually for a listener, this guy, Paul Leland. And I went, oh my God, like I had tears in my eyes. So I cannot wait for you to feel that. What are you hearing from your friends and your colleagues who are reading the book? Are they surprised to learn a little bit about you? Things they didn’t know?

Joyel Crawford:

Yeah. I actually had a friend of mine write back that she was in tears reading some of the things that I revealed. She thought she knew me. We’re pretty dear friends, but she’s like, “I didn’t know that you were in so much pain.” She said they audibly said, “No, I don’t want to lose you.” There’s a lot of pain that I share in the book, as well as triumphs. You know, it’s not always — the pain sells — but it’s not always that. But she learned so much. I feel like I’m an open book, so to speak, but apparently there’s more in the book that people didn’t know about me.

Laurie Ruettimann:

It’s so funny because people who are considered open books only really share like 5 to 10% more than anybody else. It’s just a little bit, there’s a lot more going on, but you don’t have to share a whole lot for people to think, boy, you’re vulnerable. You’re authentic. So is there book No. 2 in the works?

Joyel Crawford:

I’m thinking about it. And thank you for asking that. I’ve been thinking about a book about grieving while working. I think the bereavement policies that most companies have are crap, they’re garbage. And so a solopreneur like myself, there is no, like, time-off policy.

Laurie Ruettimann:

Yeah. Time off, you don’t eat. That’s how that goes.

Joyel Crawford:

That’s exactly right. And I just knew, I lost my dad about three, four years ago suddenly. And I was just kicking my business off, and I know that he loves money and he wouldn’t have wanted me to kind of sit around and marinate. And I just really hadn’t dealt with my grief, and I’m still working on that. And so, I think, perhaps there’s not many resources out there about working while grieving. And so I think it might be a helpful book for folks.

Laurie Ruettimann:

Well, I hope you pursue it. And there are all different kinds of grief out there. There’s the grief of physical loss. There’s emotional loss. There’s pet bereavement. There’s friendships that break apart and disconnect, especially during COVID. So I think there’s a real need for that, a real discussion. And I’m looking forward to reading about that. And I’m also looking forward to hearing about who’s coming up on your podcast. So first, tell us about your podcast, who it’s for and some of your favorite guests.

Joyel Crawford:

Well, my podcast is called Career View Mirror, and the whole premise of the podcast is to interview guests and their variety of careers and ask them about their career past so that others can successfully navigate their career future. It’s almost like interviewing, like, an informational interview and “Dirty Jobs” had a baby. So like I just randomly find guests on the street. Like I found one of my most popular podcast guests was a cannabis attorney and I met him on a platform of a train station.

Laurie Ruettimann:

Wow. Well, who’s coming up on the show that you’re excited to have?

Joyel Crawford:

I’m really excited about the guests that we’ve got coming up. I have Kelly Meerbott, and she is a phenomenal coach who just talks about integration and self. I still have her business card that she gave me when I first met her. She is just a wonderful soul. So we’re going to talk about soulful things. And then I’ve got a few other guests that are coming up. One’s a director, a screenwriter and a film director, who’s coming on board. We’ve got a person who’s also a career coach, but he’s a resume writer. And so I thought it would be interesting to add some tips to those who are in the Great Resignation, to get some tips about resume writing. And he’s also experienced some challenges as well through this whole pandemic. So he’s going to share his story, as well.

Laurie Ruettimann:

Well, I can’t wait to hear those episodes. And boy, if people are interested in who you are and what you do and more of the world of Joyel Crawford, where should they go? What do you want them to see?

Joyel Crawford:

Well, I would love for you all to find me on Instagram. I’m on all platforms. LinkedIn, Twitter, you could call my mom. She’ll tell you all about me. But also my website, which is www.crawfordleadership.com. I’m everywhere, whatever you need me.

Laurie Ruettimann:

You are. And I’m so excited for people to get a copy of your book. Tell them again, title of the book.

Joyel Crawford:

“Show Your Ask!: Using Your Voice to Advocate for Yourself and Your Career.”

Laurie Ruettimann:

Oh, I’m so glad you joined us today to tell us about your book, about your podcast and all the things in your ecosystem. Joyel, thanks again for coming on the show.

Joyel Crawford:

Thanks for having me, Laurie.

Laurie Ruettimann:

Hey everybody. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Punk Rock HR. We are proudly underwritten by The Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is the B2B marketing agency for innovative brands creating the future of workplace solutions. For more information, head on over to thestarrconspiracy.com. Punk Rock HR is produced and edited by Rep Cap with special help from Michael Thibodeaux and Devon McGrath. For more information, show notes, links, and resources, head on over to punkrockhr.com. Now that’s all for today and I hope you enjoyed it. We’ll see you next time on Punk Rock HR.