My guest today is speaker, coach and workshop facilitator Deborah Grayson Riegel. She is a Wharton, Columbia and Duke faculty member, Harvard Business Review columnist and the bestselling author of “Go To Help: 31 Strategies to Offer, Ask For, and Accept Help.”
In this conversation, we talk about her work, her passions and, most importantly, how to ask for help. Deborah’s ecosystem is about creating healthy living, high engagement and better relationships so people can thrive.
“I have a feeling that this is probably what I would be doing anyway — is talking to people about their communication, the impact that it’s having, how to take it easier on yourself, how not to fall into old habits and patterns and traps,” she says. “ And I just think I’d be doing it anyway, and I’m just lucky enough that I get to do it professionally.”
Punk Rock HR is proudly underwritten by The Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is a B2B marketing agency for innovative brands creating the future of workplace solutions. For more information, head over to thestarrconspiracy.com.
Do People Really Want Help?
Deborah’s recent work has centered on how people ask for help. As an executive coach, people ask her for help all the time. But I wondered: Do people really want help? Sometimes we ask for one kind of help but get offered something else.
“People want different outcomes. That doesn’t necessarily mean that they want the help associated with having different outcomes,” Deborah says. Her latest book touches on the phenomenon called “solution aversion.”
“Solution aversion is a fancy term for something that every single one of us have dealt with,” Deborah explains. “Which is that we may see a problem and really want the problem to be solved, but when we realize that the solution is tricky or hard or complicated or is going to take a long time, we’ll actually minimize the problem and say, ‘Ah, I can live with it. It’s not so bad.’”
How Culture Affects Our Desire for Help
Asking for help is simple in theory. But our ego and the culture we live in can have huge influences in whether we feel safe asking for assistance.
Even as children, Deborah says, “we start to associate admitting that ‘I can’t do something by myself’ with reputational costs, so people are going to think less of me and differently of me if I say I can’t do it alone.”
Culture can also influence our view of seeking help — whether we feel it’s shameful or whether it’s part of the community’s fabric. “Culture” can mean many things, including your country, family or workplace.
“In some cultures, people go, ‘Yeah, we’re all here for each other. Nobody can get through this life alone. We ask, and we give each other help,’ Deborah explains. “In other cultures, asking for help outside the family would bring shame and embarrassment to the family. So there’s a whole lot about how we were acculturated to ask for help that is really impactful.”
There’s also the intersections of race, gender and sexual orientation that can complicate people’s desire to ask for help. People from marginalized communities might not feel as safe.
“If you are living as a member of a population that is underrepresented or marginalized in some way, it may not even be about the asking for help. It’s the admitting, the admitting part that you could use some help and how that might be used against you,” Deborah says.
How to Offer Help to Others
What can workplace leaders do, especially if they know people are reluctant to ask for help? They can learn to get better at offering help. The best way to start is to identify the level of trust in the relationship.
“If the relationship already has a history of trust and a history of giving and receiving help that has been positively regarded, then I think you can be a lot more direct,” Deborah says. Be intentional in your approach, and know that “asking for help” can mean something different for every person.
Because people view help differently, Deborah’s latest book offers 31 ways to help. Many of us default to two approaches: telling people what to do or just doing it for them. But people can also try things like:
- Listening without judgment.
- Asking questions that will help people reflect on the situation.
- Pointing out what’s going well for them.
One lesson that I’ve learned from this conversation is that offering help doesn’t always have to start with saying, “What can I do to help?”
[bctt tweet=”‘People want different outcomes. That doesn’t necessarily mean that they want the help associated with having different outcomes.’ ~ @DeborahGRiegel, keynote speaker, workshop facilitator and bestselling author. Tune in to the latest #PunkRockHR.” via=”no”]
People in This Episode
Deborah Grayson Riegel: LinkedIn, Twitter, Website
Full Transcript
Laurie Ruettimann:
This episode of Punk Rock HR is sponsored by The Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is the B2B marketing agency for innovative brands creating the future of workplace solutions. For more information, head on over to thestarrconspiracy.com.
Hey everybody, I’m Laurie Ruettimann. Welcome back to Punk Rock HR. My guest today is Deborah Grayson Riegel. She’s a Wharton, Columbia and Duke B-school member of the faculty, a Harvard Business Review columnist, a keynote speaker, a coach, a workshop facilitator and the bestselling author of “Go To Help: 31 Strategies to Offer, Ask For, and Accept Help.” And in today’s conversation, we talk about the entirety of Deborah Grayson Riegel’s work, what she’s doing, what she’s passionate about, and most importantly, we talk about how to ask for help.
So if you’re interested in meeting a really cool woman who knows a thing or two about relationships and how to move forward in this world, well sit back and enjoy my conversation with Deborah Grayson Riegel on this week’s Punk Rock HR.
Hey Deb, welcome to the podcast.
Deborah Grayson Riegel:
Nice to be here. Thanks for having me.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yes, my pleasure. Listen, before we dive deep into the ecosystem that you’ve created about healthy living, healthy engagement, relationships, all that good stuff, can you tell us who you are and what you’re all about?
Deborah Grayson Riegel:
I’d be happy to. So my name is Deborah Grayson Riegel, and I am an executive coach and a speaker and workshop facilitator. I also write and I teach at a few different business schools. That’s my professional world. And in my personal world, I’ve been married to my husband, Michael, who is also an executive coach, for 24 years. I have 21-year-old twins, Jacob and Sophie, who are seniors in college, and I’m a dog mom.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Love it. I love it. Well, you do it all. And I came to your work through your amazing column in Inc. and your most recent book on asking for help, which is something we can all get good at. So, you’ve created this world where you are just helping individuals have better relationships, both individually as well as at work professionally. So why do you do what you do?
Deborah Grayson Riegel:
Oh, what a great question. Why do I do what I do? Well, it’s interesting. As I think about the advice that I sometimes give small-business owners, I say to them, “You should probably only be doing the thing that you can’t help yourself from doing. The thing that you would be doing anyway. That’s the thing that you should be doing, and the stuff that drives you bananas, please look for an opportunity to give that away.” So I have a feeling that this is probably what I would be doing anyway — is talking to people about their communication, the impact that it’s having, how to take it easier on yourself, how not to fall into old habits and patterns and traps. And I just think I’d be doing it anyway, and I’m just lucky enough that I get to do it professionally.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, I’m struck by the fact that you write for a professional audience, and yet you are dealing with people at business schools who are maybe early or in midcareer — although they may be seasoned leaders from time to time — but very often you’re dealing with people who haven’t seen it all, who haven’t blown things up, who haven’t knocked it down and built it up again. So what’s that like? Because you’re talking to multiple audiences, how do you keep it all straight in your head?
Deborah Grayson Riegel:
Yeah. Well, there are some things that everybody has in common, although I will say my experience has been, the earlier somebody is in their career, the more likely they are willing to admit that there’s stuff they don’t know and stuff they don’t know how to do. They are not yet there at the place where they feel like, “Whoa, I’ve been at this for 10 years or 20 years. How do I admit that I need help?”
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yes, sunk-cost fallacy right there.
Deborah Grayson Riegel:
Yeah. Exactly.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Like, “I can’t do anything else.” Yeah.
Deborah Grayson Riegel:
That’s right. And thoughts about reputational risk, right? It’s lower reputational risk when you’re three years into a job to say, “I don’t know how to do something” than 30 years into a job to say, “I’ve been faking it, and now I’ve hit a place where I can’t fake it anymore.” So keeping it straight in my head is really looking for areas of commonality. Regardless of where you are in your career, chances are you need to learn how to communicate more effectively, build healthy relationships, deal with challenging conversations. So they tend to be universal. And that helps me keep it straight in my head.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Deb, I love when someone has simple answers, although I don’t ever believe them. So tell us, how do we have healthy relationships?
Deborah Grayson Riegel:
Well, look, one of the things that I believe is that not every relationship is worth investing in. I think that can be freeing for some people who have put lots of time, energy, attention, money and so on into a relationship, and it’s just not getting better. So in order for a relationship to get better, both people have to want it to improve. And often there’s one person carrying a significant amount of that burden in a relationship. And so some relationships, you may need to just decide that you can be at peace with how it is. So there’s a lot of self-talk that has to happen before you ever talk to the other person in a relationship.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yeah, that’s so prescient, because I think about all of my inbound messages around the podcast, and it’s always people in crisis about the world of work. I think there’s a lot of lessons in that. There’s only so much you can do when you’re dealing with the power differentials, anyway, of your employer, and sometimes being OK with that might look a little different than fighting against it all the time. Is that what I’m hearing you say?
Deborah Grayson Riegel:
Yes. And also be willing to invest in small changes. So I’ve got relationships that I want to get from great to exceptional, some that I want to get from good to great, some that I want to get from fair to good. And in my mind, there’s a distinction between being estranged from someone, like we are not talking, to just I’m willing to say “hey” to you in the hall. That’s already a significant change. So where can you even move the needle a little bit so that you have less active stress in your life?
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, I love that. I think about your latest work, focused around asking for help. And I mean, as an executive coach, people are asking you for help all day long. One question, do people really want help?
Deborah Grayson Riegel:
People want different outcomes. That doesn’t necessarily mean that they want the help associated with having different outcomes. So one of the chapters in my book focuses on this phenomenon called “solution aversion.” Solution aversion is a fancy term for something that every single one of us have dealt with, which is that we may see a problem and really want the problem to be solved, but when we realize that the solution is tricky or hard or complicated or is going to take a long time, we’ll actually minimize the problem and say, “Ah, I can live with it. It’s not so bad.” And so there are a lot of people who want a problem solved and a different outcome, but don’t want to do what is required to do it. And that includes accepting help, asking for help, and all of those sorts of things.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, what are some of the other common challenges around asking for help? I mean, there’s ego, there’s just the fact that sometimes we don’t know that we have permission to ask for help, but what else is involved?
Deborah Grayson Riegel:
Yeah. So certainly, ego. And research shows that starting at around age 7, we start to associate admitting that “I can’t do something by myself” with reputational costs, so people are going to think less of me and differently of me if I say I can’t do it alone. So ego is a really big part of it. Another really big part of it is culture. So there are certain cultures, which could be anything from country of origin to the family in which you were raised. In some cultures, people go, “Yeah, we’re all here for each other. Nobody can get through this life alone. We ask and we give each other help.” In other cultures, asking for help outside the family would bring shame and embarrassment to the family. So there’s a whole lot about how we were acculturated to ask for help that is really impactful.
I remember one of the things that I talk about in the book is listening to a podcast with Adam Grant and Esther Perel. And Esther Perel, who is this relationship guru, was talking about the fact that she grew up the daughter of Holocaust survivors. Her parents were very clear that they never would’ve survived the Holocaust without help. And so she was raised in a family that said, “Of course we ask for help. That’s the only way we get through this life.” Not everybody was raised in a culture like that.
Laurie Ruettimann:
No, absolutely. I also think there’s probably an intersection of race and gender here that needs to be discussed. Certain people are just taught from a very early age that it’s safe to ask for help, and maybe other people from marginalized communities may not feel that way. Is there a role in the conversation for race and gender and even sexual orientation, sexual preference? Tell me more.
Deborah Grayson Riegel:
Yes. All of those things matter, right? If you are living as a member of a population that is underrepresented or marginalized in some way, it may not even be about the asking for help. It’s the admitting, the admitting part that you could use some help and how that might be used against you. And so I am very clear that I grew up as privileged as privilege could be: white, upper-middle-class woman, all the different ways in which there was never any place in which I needed help or asked for help where it was a reflection on my people. And for people who are firsts, people who are onlys, people who are marginalized, the power differential there is so different and, in many cases, unyielding, that it carries a lot of meaning behind it. And I recognize that I’m not speaking from personal experience, I’m speaking from what I know in the literature and what I know from anecdotal situations with clients and colleagues.
Laurie Ruettimann:
So when you have a colleague who’s clearly floundering and/or is not comfortable asking for help, where do you start?
Deborah Grayson Riegel:
So part of it is, you start by evaluating the level of trust in the relationship, right? So if I have a colleague where I don’t really know them well, and I’m not sure what their norms and understandings are about help, I would probably take it a little bit more carefully, like, “Hey, there.” I might even start with myself, like, “I don’t know about you, but this project is way harder than I ever thought it would be. How are you doing on it?” So a good way to start the conversation is to start with yourself and then sort of read the room for how they answer stuff like that, like, “Nope, I’m good.” Or, “Ugh. I’m so glad you said something. I feel that way, too.”
If the relationship already has a history of trust and a history of giving and receiving help that has been positively regarded, then I think you can be a lot more direct. “Hey, can I give you a little help here? Would you like a little help? And what kind of help would be helpful?” And that’s actually one of the key messages of the book, is that we often assume we know what help is based on what we would want in that situation, but what we would want in that situation is actually irrelevant.
Laurie Ruettimann:
I see a theme also in some of your articles and some of your writing around assumptions and how they derail relationships in a lot of different ways. And so, is that one of the core mistakes that we just make as human beings — like assuming we know, assuming that we have answers before we’ve asked questions? I mean, I feel like every time I assume something, I make a mistake.
Deborah Grayson Riegel:
I’m right there with you. And so another way to think of our assumptions are stories that we are making up. An assumption is a story that we’re making up. And that doesn’t mean there’s no truth to the story, that doesn’t mean that it wasn’t an educated guess, but that’s really what it is, it’s an educated guess. And part of it goes back to the idea of asking for help is — if I assume I know what you mean and I know what you want, then I don’t have to ask you for help in helping me understand.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, I think we make assumptions because the world is so quick, and we’re trying to deliver shortcuts and trying to get to answers sooner because we’re overloaded with information, overloaded with work, — overloaded, maybe, with too many relationships, superficial or otherwise. These assumptions that we make help us move forward in some way, but I don’t know, they don’t in my life. I’ve learned that more and more as I’ve hit middle age and beyond. Like, every time I make an assumption, I’m like, “Oh, I did that wrong.” I don’t know. Deb, what do you think?
Deborah Grayson Riegel:
I think you make a really good point, which is without assumptions or mental models, we would be paralyzed by everyday decisions, right? So I have to assume that when I take a step away from my desk, the floor will still be here. It’s possible it could have opened up and swallowed me alive, but I have to just assume. There are some assumptions that you should be able to make to help you get through the world. If you can never make assumptions, then you’re actually living in abject fear and terror. And as somebody who has struggled with anxiety disorders my entire life, I know what it’s like to feel like you can’t make a positive assumption about anything. And if you have a relationship that isn’t feeling as healthy or whole as you would like it to, one of the first places to go is, “What assumptions am I making?”
Laurie Ruettimann:
Great question. I feel like that point you brought up about anxiety is so interesting because right now, the federal government in the United States is recommending that anybody 65 and younger be screened for anxiety. So if we’re all walking around, or many of us, in a hyper-aroused state, that’s going to have negative downstream effects on so many of these relationships, putting us in a position where we either don’t ask for help or we don’t ask for help until it’s too late. I don’t know. What do you think about that?
Deborah Grayson Riegel:
Well, there are a couple things that I would want to unpack in there. So screening for anxiety doesn’t increase the amount of anxiety. I remember this with COVID testing, right? Testing for COVID doesn’t increase the amount of COVID. So it’s happening anyway, it just allows us to identify people who could benefit from some kind of help. So I think that’s a really important distinction.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Deb, that’s a really interesting point. Also, I know that you’ve got a point of view around anxiety and anxiety disorders. Can you tell us a little bit about the difference?
Deborah Grayson Riegel:
Yeah, so they are related, but two different things. And so, anxiety is having a feeling of stress without there necessarily being an external stressor. An anxiety disorder is something that is persistent and is disruptive to our lives and can only be diagnosed by a doctor or a licensed mental health professional.
Laurie Ruettimann:
So, I can understand why that distinction is important, because many of us may have a heightened sense of arousal, but it may be situational, correct? It’s not necessarily a clinical diagnosis? That being said, even heightened arousal, pervasive heightened arousal, can erode our relationships. And so I love the fact that you’ve got a body of work out there that talks about asking for what you need and asking for it in a better, healthier way. What else can we learn from your most recent book?
Deborah Grayson Riegel:
So I think one of the things to learn is that we need to become what we call in the book “more help fluent.” So most of us in our lives have been rewarded for a couple of ways of helping that we are really good at, right? So when I think about what people come to me for, people come to me because I’m really resourceful. I don’t know everything, but I know the people who know the things, and I’m happy to make connections.
And if that is the thing that people have come to depend on me for, I’m actually not building up other helping skills, perhaps like being empathetic or celebrating successes or helping somebody set some goals. And so the book has 31 different ways of helping, because chances are, for most of us, your go-to ways of helping are, “Let me tell you what to do or let me do it for you,” right?
Laurie Ruettimann:
Right. Right. Right. So what are some other examples of ways that we can be helpful?
Deborah Grayson Riegel:
So one of the ways that I can be helpful is to listen to you without judging. Another way that I can be helpful is to ask you some questions that are going to help you reflect on something. Another way that I could be helpful is to point out what is going well for you when you’re feeling like nothing is going well. Another way of being helpful would be for me to say, “What if you just stopped?” You’ve been talking about a relationship that you’re putting a lot of effort into and the needle isn’t moving. What if you just stopped? So there’s 31 different ways that we could be helpful to our friends, our colleagues, our family members, and chances are, we’ve only got a couple of strategies that we’re really good at.
Laurie Ruettimann:
I have found myself saying something different during COVID, and I don’t know if this is on your list, but one of the things I’ve started saying is, “I’m not sure I can be helpful in this situation, but maybe I know someone who can.” Right? And I’ve been making referrals and opting out of really trying to be involved in certain scenarios. I don’t know. What do you think about that? Is that on one of your lists?
Deborah Grayson Riegel:
Yes. Offering resources is one of the strategies. And what you’re describing is what we called —
Laurie Ruettimann:
Or just saying no. I just like, “I can’t.”
Deborah Grayson Riegel:
Yeah, or saying no. But what you’re really talking about is what we call being a bridge to resources. So you are not the resource, you are the bridge to other resources. And your goal is to sort of say, “There’s the resource over there, and I invite you to walk across the bridge if you think that would be helpful.”
Laurie Ruettimann:
I love that. That’s a great recommendation. I think so many of us read Psychology Today and feel like we’re experts in our areas, and we offer advice that we may not be qualified to offer or that is based on a ton of assumptions. And then we carry the burden of that interaction, as well, with us all the time. And I think for me, one of the most helpful things I’ve learned is to just say, “I don’t think I can be helpful, and here are other resources.” So thank you for validating that strategy, because I never want to be unkind or not sympathetic or not empathetic, but sometimes I’m not your girl. You know what I mean?
Deborah Grayson Riegel:
Yeah. And if we bring in the wisdom of Brené Brown, clear is kind, right? So as opposed to one of the things we talk about in the book is, what is it like to have somebody offer you help when it is really clear they don’t really want to help? They don’t have the time. They’re not really in it. They’ve said yes, but now they are demonstrating that this wasn’t the right call for them. So just being clear is kind.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yeah, that’s really helpful. Thank you for that. Well, as we start to wrap up the conversation, I’m really curious about what you’re seeing out there in the world of work these days. From your position as a professor, from someone who tells stories and also from someone who sees a diverse amount of people, I mean, you talk to a lot of people, small businesses, big businesses, young people, older people, what are some of the key issues out there that really interest you?
Deborah Grayson Riegel:
I’m always interested in communication. Whether we’re talking about formal presentations or difficult conversations, that is always interesting to me because it’s happening. Whether you’re saying something or saying nothing, both of those are communication. And so as our world of work has changed, communication is certainly at the forefront. So how do we communicate in hybrid teams? How do we communicate about mental wellbeing? How do we communicate that we are being able to be compassionate leaders while still holding people accountable for results?
So all of these different things fall into this giant bucket of communication, and I’m always interested in the trends I’m seeing as the world changes, as we change and as expectations get rewritten.
Laurie Ruettimann:
And how about your role as a parent of two twins who are Gen Z? I would imagine that’s got to be a pretty interesting position to be in and gives you kind of a slightly nuanced perspective.
Deborah Grayson Riegel:
Yes. And they are twins who in many ways could not be more different, different genders, different personalities. The one thing they have in common is that they’re both just amazing humans. What’s really interesting to see from my perspective is they’re both really committed to finding work that they love, that will also support their ability to live the life that they want. And watching them think through, “I know what society tells me I should do or should do next, that’s not particularly interesting to me,” has been really interesting and freeing.
And my job as a — my daughter Sophie is the fourth-generation female entrepreneur in our family. So my grandmother was the first. I’ve always really wanted my kids to know that you don’t have to love your job, but it’s an option. And that’s what I’ve chosen. Not everybody gets to, not everybody will, but that’s what I’ve chosen. And they really want to love what they do, but also not at the expense of being able to afford the life they want for themselves.
Laurie Ruettimann:
I have this conversation often with guests and just people in my life around whether or not this new position of emerging workers in our society, young kids who are like, “I’ve seen it. I don’t want to be like my parents,” if that is sustainable because there is this pressure for social mobility. There is this pressure in our society for things that overtook my generation, Gen X, overtook many millennials. And I think a lot of CEOs are betting on the fact that these kids one day are going to want a house, they’re going to want a car. So I don’t know. Do you see that with your children? Do you see the threat of social mobility really encroaching on these wonderful aspirations to live a life at the intersection of purpose and meaning?
Deborah Grayson Riegel:
I think the jury is still out on these 21-year-olds. I don’t know yet, but I’ll be really fascinated to follow their journey and hopefully be a part of it and help them in the ways that feel most helpful to them.
Laurie Ruettimann:
I hope so. I’m really rooting for them. If all millennials got were hoodies, that makes me so depressed. So I’m really hoping that this next generation makes some true inroads in the world of work. And I’m excited that you share your children’s stories on LinkedIn. So thank you for doing that.
Deborah Grayson Riegel:
My pleasure. And let’s just give a quick shout out to Gen X.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Oh, for sure. Yeah, I mean, I’m 47 years old, and I was hating on work and really thinking about different systems before it was cool, as you were. And you’re now living that dream and doing that work, so that’s amazing.
Deborah Grayson Riegel:
I’ve got nothing but love for us Xers. We’ve been through a lot, and we got a lot of experience to share, too.
Laurie Ruettimann:
That’s right. That’s right. Well, Deb, I’m so excited that you’re a guest today. Thanks for sharing just your insights, just a little bit of your body of work. If people want to learn more, where can they go?
Deborah Grayson Riegel:
Well, please come find me on LinkedIn. I would love to connect that way. And I’m the picture of the person in the purple jacket. The reason that I say that is my name is Deborah Grayson Riegel. One sister-in-law is Deborah Riegel. The other one is Deborah Grayson. So you want to make sure you find me, I’m in the fuchsia jacket.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Those are real LinkedIn problems. Yeah.
Deborah Grayson Riegel:
That is a real LinkedIn problem. We somehow figure ourselves out. That’s a great way to be in touch with me. You can certainly come visit me on my website at deborahgraysonriegal.com. You find me, and then I can send you other resources, because that’s one of the ways in which I’m helpful.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Amazing. Well, we’ll make sure to include all of that good stuff in the show notes, including the link to you and not your sisters-in-law.
Deborah Grayson Riegel:
Yeah, right. They’re awesome also, but you’ll get very different services.
Laurie Ruettimann:
For sure. Well, it was really a pleasure to catch up with you today. Thanks again for being a guest.
Deborah Grayson Riegel:
Thanks for having me.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Hey everybody. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Punk Rock HR. We are proudly underwritten by The Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is the B2B marketing agency for innovative brands creating the future of workplace solutions. For more information, head on over to thestarrconspiracy.com.
Punk Rock HR is produced and edited by Rep Cap with special help from Michael Thibodeaux and Devon McGrath. For more information, show notes, links and resources, head on over to punkrockhr.com. Now, that’s all for today and I hope you enjoyed it. We’ll see you next time on Punk Rock HR.