Laurie Ruettimann

Category: Punk Rock HR

  • Punk Rock HR Podcast Returns: Insightful Conversations Begin April 3, 2023!

    Punk Rock HR Podcast Returns: Insightful Conversations Begin April 3, 2023!

    The wait is nearly over!

    Punk Rock HR, your go-to podcast dedicated to the ins and outs of transforming work, is making a comeback on April 3, 2023. Sponsored by Betterworks for the quarter, we’re excited to bring fresh episodes filled with insightful discussions, innovative ideas, and practical advice tailored for HR professionals and business leaders alike.

    Get ready for engaging conversations with some of the industry’s brightest minds, including CEOs, best-selling authors, and influential HR leaders.

    Here’s a sneak peek at a few of our outstanding upcoming guests:

    Doug Dennerline & Jamie Aitken

    Join us for an insightful conversation with Doug Dennerline, an experienced CEO in the HR tech space, and Jamie Aitken, a distinguished HR thought leader specializing in talent management and employee engagement. They’ll discuss the future of HR and technology’s crucial role in its development. Plus, they’ll preview their new book, “Make Work Better: Revolutionizing How Great Bosses Lead, Give Feedback, and Empower Employees.“

    Enrique Rubio

    We’ll chat with Enrique Rubio, founder of the Hacking HR community and a key figure in the HR tech space. Enrique will emphasize the importance of staying ahead in HR and embracing cutting-edge innovations.

    Karoline Saffi

    Karoline Saffi, an HR expert passionate about organizational psychology and inclusive workplaces, will share her thoughts on cultivating a diverse and supportive work environment while promoting a healthier workplace culture.

    Dr. Mary Ann Horton

    Dr. Horton, a trailblazing author and computer scientist, helps organizations implement inclusion programs focused on transgender employees. We’ll explore the power of data in driving inclusion and how empathy and understanding can revolutionize workplace dynamics and boost employee satisfaction.

    Lexi B

    In this episode, I’ll talk with Lexi B, a tech freedom fighter at the crossroads of essential workplace conversations. Lexi B and I will delve into her origin story and why business is always personal. This chat promises to be a fun one!

    David Glasgow

    David Glasgow and I will discuss his best-selling book, “Say the Right Thing: How to Talk About Identity, Diversity, and Justice,” and his vision for a work environment that embraces challenges, fosters diversity, and enables creativity and productivity.

    Liz Vaccariello

    Editor-in-Chief and journalist Liz Vaccariello shares her unique perspective on storytelling, the power of effective communication in forging strong workplace relationships, and her journey to success.

    Carlos Escobar

    Join our engaging conversation with Carlos Escobar, a seasoned HR leader specializing in change management, employee development, and organizational development. Carlos and I will examine the successes and shortcomings of corporate America during the pandemic. Spoiler alert: We got COVID at about the same time after running a half-marathon together.

    Punk Rock HR podcast is back, better than ever, and boasts a lineup of top-tier guests eager to share their knowledge and expertise. Mark your calendars for April 3, 2023, and prepare to dive into captivating conversations that challenge your thinking and inspire fresh ideas in human resources. Whether you’re an avid HR professional or a leader committed to creating better work environments, the Punk Rock HR podcast is your go-to source for stimulating discussions and practical insights. Don’t miss out – subscribe now on iTunes, Spotify, or any other platform and join us on this rousing journey!

  • Employer Branding Strategies with Susan LaMotte

    Employer Branding Strategies with Susan LaMotte

    My guest in this episode is Susan LaMotte, founder and CEO of exaqueo, an employer brand consulting firm and agency. Susan and I have known each other for over a decade, and I am excited to have her on this episode to talk about employer branding strategies and much more.

    In this conversation, we talk about what employer branding really is, what it isn’t and why it’s so important for HR leaders to be the stewards of their employer brand. I love this conversation because Susan and I also talk about the importance of being human in the workplace and what that means beyond the buzzwords.

    The Starr Conspiracy

    Punk Rock HR is proudly underwritten by The Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is a B2B marketing agency for innovative brands creating the future of workplace solutions. For more information, head over to thestarrconspiracy.com.

    What Is Employer Branding?

    “Employer brand is the branding and marketing of the entirety of the employment experience,” Susan explains. “So, from the time someone is even aware your organization exists all the way through departure, either through internal mobility into another role in the organization or departure out of the organization.”

    It’s pretty standard for people to confuse employer brand with candidate or employee experience — and there is a bit of overlap — but they are two very different terms. The term “employer brand” was first coined in the late 1990s, and people have been adapting it over the years to be what they want it to be, Susan notes.

    Employer brand is about branding the entire experience, from every touchpoint employers have with an employee or candidate. This includes what you say to candidates, how you say those things and what channels you use to communicate. By contrast, candidate and employee experience are more about the journey.

    “Employee experience and candidate experience is that experience you have along the way, so it really sits underneath. Employer brand is at the top,” she shares.

    Similarly, some people use employer brand as a synonym for recruitment marketing, but they aren’t the same. The concepts are inexplicably linked, but they serve different purposes within and outside of organizations.

    “Employer brand is branding and marketing the whole experience, and it’s the strategy of doing that. So employer brand is the umbrella, recruitment marketing is one thing under that umbrella,” Susan explains. “So is DEI marketing. So is employee experience. All of those things fall under the larger employer brand umbrella.”

    Is Employer Branding HR or Marketing?

    Employer branding sits at the intersection of marketing and HR, which often leads to debates about where it properly belongs in the organization.

    “Employer brand as an industry, as a function, is about people and is about the people that are working in and for your organization,” Susan says. “And consumer brand is about the customer. So there’s a lot we can learn from consumer brand, but ultimately, employer brand has to sit within human resources.”

    Susan argues that the employer brand is HR because, ultimately, the employer brand belongs to the brand’s chief people officer. “Your consumer brand or your master brand is a sibling to your employer brand. It’s not just how you talk about yourself. And it’s certainly not just recruiting,” she says.

    So while there can be an overlap in employer brand and marketing, everything surrounding employer brand should fall under the leadership of human resources. Everything we do in HR is a touchpoint in the employee experience.

    The Intersection of DEI and Employer Brand

    The notion that your head of HR is also the steward and head of your employer brand is great for businesses seeking to drive diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives.

    “When you are an employee in an organization, your experience is based on who you are, right?” she explains. “However you identify, ethnicity, gender, anything, sexual orientation — that defines your every relationship in your life, including your employment relationship.”

    Click-to-Tweet: “Employer brand as an industry, as a function, is about people and is about the people that are working in and for your organization,” ~ @SusanLaMotte. Tune in to this episode of #PunkRockHR to learn more about the employer brand!

    People in This Episode

    Full Transcript

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    This episode of Punk Rock HR is sponsored by The Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is the B2B marketing agency for innovative brands creating the future of workplace solutions. For more information, head on over to thestarrconspiracy.com.

    Hey, everybody, I’m Laurie Ruettimann. Welcome back to Punk Rock HR. My guest today is Susan LaMotte. She’s the founder and CEO of exaqueo, an employer brand consulting firm and agency. Susan and I have known one another for over a decade, and I’m excited to bring you this conversation today about what employer branding really is, and what it isn’t, and why it’s so important for human resources professionals and HR leadership teams to be the stewards of their employer brand. I also love this conversation because Susan and I talk about the importance of being human in the workplace and what it means beyond the buzzwords. So, if you’re interested in the world of human resources and how to communicate why it’s so absolutely great to work at your organization and how well you treat your workers, especially in this era of the Great Resignation, well, sit tight and enjoy this conversation with Susan LaMotte.

    Hey, Susan, welcome to the podcast.

    Susan LaMotte:

    Hi, Laurie. Thanks for having me.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    Oh my goodness, it’s my pleasure. Listen, you and I are buddies, we’re friends, we go way back, but for those who don’t know you and how wonderful you are, why don’t you tell everybody who you are and what you’re all about?

    Susan LaMotte:

    Sure. So I run exaqueo. We are an employer brand consulting firm. I have spent my almost 25-year career at the intersection of where business meets behavior. So I’m fascinated by people at work, how they work, but then also how we make money off of people that work.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    Well, lots to unpack there. Listen, I want to know a little bit more about Susan when she’s not working because, for me, that’s where the rubber meets the road. What do you like when you’re not doing all this important work? What are some of your passions?

    Susan LaMotte:

    It’s funny you say that, Laurie, because we ask our clients, and in research, we ask this all the time, “Where do you get your energy from outside of work?” is the way we ask the question. And for me, it is from people. So first and foremost, my family. I’m a working mom, so that in and of itself during COVID should tell you something. There’s not a lot of time to focus on other things. I also get energy from my dad, who’s been fighting Alzheimer’s for seven years. And then energy from the people in my community, because so much of what you do at work is so connected to the people you work with. And that topic for me, it’s incredibly refreshing to connect with people who do things completely different from what I do or live completely different lives. That to me gives me a lot of energy. And I love bourbon, yoga, football, maybe not in that order.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    Yeah, I know what ranks pretty high up in that list. We’ve had a couple of late nights out, so we’ll just leave it at that. Well, let’s get started talking a little bit about the work you do because you got your start in the world of human resources, and like so many really great, wonderful, talented women, you didn’t quite stay in that role. So tell us a little bit about your career journey.

    Susan LaMotte:

    I think with most people, my career journey is not defined by what I set out to do but by those stops along the way. I’ve had 32 jobs since I got my first W-2 when I was 13 or 14. And so, my journey started in traditional HR. I was a staffing manager. I was a recruiter. I worked at the now-defunct Arthur Andersen, so that was an interesting journey. I transitioned into HR consulting and then into being an HR consultant and contractor, working in career services as a career coach, and ultimately realized I just didn’t know enough about business. There was, I think, a real opportunity to say, “Hey, how can you see the value of HR if you don’t understand how capitalism works? If you don’t understand how business works?” And so I went and got my MBA and then went back into the corporate world. That’s where I really started digging into this intersection of all of this opportunity that HR has, as you think about recruiting, employee experience, candidate experience. So I spent some time with Marriott International and their portfolio of brands, and then ultimately started exaqueo about a decade ago.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    Well, the journey from HR to entrepreneurship is never easy for anybody. Did you know that you were an entrepreneur back in the early days of working in human resources? Or is this something you discovered along the way?

    Susan LaMotte:

    There’s a really interesting, I think, intersection between independence and entrepreneurship. And so, I think people always think like, “Oh, I’ve always been an entrepreneur. I sold things.” But a lot of it has to do with how independent you are. I’m a middle child. I like to do everything myself, no one could ever help me. So for me, I think that’s where my path to entrepreneurship came from, because when Marriott offered me a promotion, an executive one at that, I turned it down because I didn’t think they could help me in the way that I wanted to. I didn’t think I would still have the independence I had when I was running employer brand because I owned something that no one else knew anything about. And that’s, I think, what’s interesting and sexy about it, right?

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    Well, I love that you just use the word employer brand, because for me, when I think about you, if I did the old-school Wordle, one of the words that would come up and come up big would be employer brand. So can you tell us what that word is and what it means?

    Susan LaMotte:

    Sure. So employer brand is the branding and marketing of the entirety of the employment experience. So, from the time someone is even aware your organization exists all the way through departure, either through internal mobility into another role in the organization or departure out of the organization.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    So employer brand, a lot of people might confuse it with employee experience, but I think there’s an overlap there that’s natural, but the two are different, correct?

    Susan LaMotte:

    They are. There’s so much confusion in our space. Employer brand as a term was only coined in the late ’90s. And so, I think there’s a lot of professionals that have been adapting it over the years to be what they want it to be. The difference is that employer brand is branding that whole experience, so every single touch point you have with an employee or a candidate, how and what do you say to them, both verbally and non-verbally and in what channels. Employee experience and candidate experience is that experience you have along the way, so it really sits underneath.

    Employer brand’s at the top. It’s like if you look at the marketing organization, the CMO owns and stewards the brand. If you look in the HR organization, that’s what the chief people officer should do, is own and steward the brand. You and I both know HR’s structured very differently, but that’s what it should be. And then the experience, like the customer experience, should follow at the very bottom of that funnel. That’s the output.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    Well, before we talk about that funnel in human resources, let’s talk about the overlap with marketing, because a lot of people believe that recruiting should report into marketing, and some even say that the marketing and management of people should somehow fall under the marketing department. So where does employer brand and consumer brand touch, and where do they differ?

    Susan LaMotte:

    Employer brand as an industry, as a function, is about people and is about the people that are working in and for your organization. And consumer brand is about the customer. So there’s a lot we can learn from consumer brand, but ultimately, employer brand has to sit within human resources. I would argue that employer brand is human resources, that your chief people officer should be your chief employer brand officer, because that’s ultimately what they’re doing.

    Now, that being said, your consumer brand or your master brand is a sibling to your employer brand. They have to be part and parcel. They have to work together. It’s not just your reputation. It’s not just how you talk about yourself. And it’s certainly not just recruiting. For me, the perfect place for employer brand is the leadership of human resources. Everything we do in HR should fall under that, because everything we do in human resources is a touch point along that candidate or employee experience. But very few organizations think that way. It took me five years to convince Marriott that internal communications belonged under employer brand. And after I left, they finally made the change. I think they’ve seen the results because they realized that’s what internal communications is. So there’s real value to thinking about it that way.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    Well, I love this notion that your head of human resources is also your steward and head of your employer brand. Can you give me an example about how an initiative or something really important, like diversity and inclusion, relates to employer branding?

    Susan LaMotte:

    When you are an employee in an organization, your experience is based on who you are, right? It’s whether however you identify, ethnicity, gender, anything, sexual orientation — that defines your every relationship in your life, including your employment relationship. So that is part of your employee experience. And so, ultimately, let’s say, I identify as a Caucasian woman, I’m going through an employment experience as a Caucasian woman. So every time the organization talks to me in any way, shape or form, I’m receiving that as a Caucasian woman. Take, for example, the email that was leaked that introduced the new Peloton CEO. That email referenced two white male instructors, and it referenced all the founders of Peloton, all of whom were men, not a single woman. So if I identify as a woman, or even nonbinary, and I’m reading that email and I’m an employee at Peloton, one of the lucky ones who wasn’t laid off, I’m immediately feeling, “Gosh, here’s a white male CEO, he hasn’t referenced a single female in this email.” That’s employer brand. Some people would say it’s corporate comms, some people would say it’s marketing, some people would say, “Oh, it’s the CEO, he wanted to write that email himself.” All of those things are true, but it’s still employer brand.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    Do you sometimes feel like Sisyphus rolling a boulder up a hill when you talk about employer brand? Because I think people get it but yet they’re like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, but employer brand is part and parcel of these other things that we do.” It’s not primary language, it’s secondary language.

    Susan LaMotte:

    I think for two reasons. The challenge one, because employer brand has been linked so closely with recruitment marketing. And everyone uses them as interchangeable terms, and they’re not. So recruitment marketing is, you’re selling jobs. You’re doing the act of marketing, activation, content. You are selling a job. You are branding and marketing a job and the attraction of talent to that job. Employer brand is branding and marketing the whole experience, and it’s the strategy of doing that. So employer brand is the umbrella, recruitment marketing is one thing under that umbrella. So is DEI marketing. So is employee experience. All of those things fall under the larger employer brand umbrella.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    So the first challenge as you’re rolling that boulder up the hill is the co-mingling of employer brand and recruitment marketing. What are some of your other challenges?

    Susan LaMotte:

    I think another big challenge is that there are no industry standards. And so, you’ve got a burgeoning industry that all of a sudden is needed like it’s never been needed before. And you have a lot of voices, many of whom have a different definition of what employer brand is. Many of whom believe that employer brand is just for recruitment or talent acquisition, many who see employer brand — especially some of the newer professionals that just started doing employer brand — as really about activation, really about content marketing, sharing stories and getting the content out there in order to attract the volume. And that’s probably the final challenge is: You’ve got a number of organizations, particularly Fortune 500 companies, who are trying to solve a problem. That problem is butts in seats, right? And because they’re trying to solve that problem, they’re looking at employer brand as a way to solve that problem — not for what it really is, which is our people strategy.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    We’ve talked about some of the challenges with employer brand. Can you give us a case study or two of organizations that are doing it and doing it right? Who do you admire? Who do you work with? Who do you want us to know about? Who’s a shining example of what employer branding could be?

    Susan LaMotte:

    I’ll give you two examples. The first is GDIT, or General Dynamics Information Technology. We share that example often, they’re a client of ours. The reason we share it is really interesting, not because they’re the sexiest brand that exists, but because they were in a market — government contracting, multi-billion-dollar company. All of the government contractors look and feel the same. And if you work for government contractor, or any contractor, right, oftentimes, your relationship is more with the agency you work for than with your employer.

    What GDIT did really well is when they went to rebrand their master brand, the CMO and the employer brand leader saw the value of doing the employer brand at the same time so that they could launch together, so that when they created a new brand for the organization, they were not just talking to customers, they were also talking to candidates and employees. And that unification, that timing was really powerful.

    They also really believed in the research. And so they invested a lot in truly understanding what was different about them as a government contractor, and then being willing to own was authentic, and that’s the hardest thing. Get a bunch of CEOs in  — or a bunch of executives — in a boardroom, they all want to make the employer brand sound the same. “Opportunity for growth. We’re diverse.” And then before you know it, they all sound the same.

    GDIT was willing to truly own what made them different, which was this idea of initiative. So their employer brand is opportunity-owned. And they’re selling the fact that, unlike traditional consulting where there’s seven levels, you know what you need to do to climb each level and it’s super-simple, at GDIT, you have to own your opportunity. So from the get-go, talent will self-select out because they’re not that initiative-driven, and they’ll find another government contractor to work for.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    Well, I love that example, and I love that you brought up this idea of research. Because I think so many people don’t understand that when you’re coming up with a consumer brand or an employer brand, there’s a tremendous amount of research out there. It’s not just going and looking at your competitors. I mean, to me, the environmental landscape might be the easiest thing to do. Some of the hardest work that I know you must do is talking to existing employees or candidates who have self-selected out and having honest conversations about the brand experience. So can you talk to me a little bit about the research you do?

    Susan LaMotte:

    The research is such an important part, and I love that you use the term “honest conversations,” because this is where we have a lot to learn from marketing. In HR, the data we typically collect from our employees is the time from when they walk in the door to the time they leave. We don’t get to know them as humans, who they are, where they spend their time, what matters to them, who the influences are in their lives, what kind of relationships do they have that influence their decision to take or keep a job. So when we do our research, the idea is that you need to do it more often. You need to do it focused on the employee. Engagement surveys are about us as employers, right? Are you engaged in my work? So it can’t be ego-driven, and you have to do it on a regular basis, just like we do in market research. Every consumer products company collects market research data every day. Engagement surveys on the employment side, we do them once a year.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    I think part of the challenge with employee research is that you don’t want to bother and ping the employee too much because they’re busy working. Do you have recommendations to any listeners out there if they want to get to know their workforce and start to do this research? How do they talk to them? When do they talk to them? And do they do it, or do they find an expert like you?

    Susan LaMotte:

    Finding an expert is hard because it costs money. If you talk to your marketing teams, go ask them how much they spend on market research. It’ll be a really scary number that it may be your entire budget, let alone enough budget to do this work. If you’re doing it on your own, the two pieces of advice I always share. One is, do it in a really unbiased way. Don’t go to the organization and say, “Oh, Laurie, she loves to talk. Let’s bring her in a room and see what she says.” At least hire an unbiased facilitator to facilitate the conversations, even if you’re doing the rest of it yourself.

    The second piece is to do it frequently and to tell employees why you’re doing it frequently. We always assume employees don’t want to be bothered, but the reality is when we do our research, 99% of the time employees say to us, “No one’s ever cared enough about us to ask us these questions.” So part of it is the frame. It’s just like academicians do, it’s how they frame up the study. Why are we doing this? What are we going to be focused on here? And ultimately, what will happen with the data? It’s all about how you structure the conversation.

    And then it’s also about the tools and mediums you use too. I think every HR professional thinks, “Oh, focus groups are easy. We’re just going to ask some questions about how you work, why you work, and we’ll get everybody in a room, and we’ll ask these questions and see how it goes.” But the reality is, data collection is a practice. It is an industry. It requires years of experience to be able to facilitate correctly, structure discussion guides and questions that’s right, and that’s not something that just everybody can do. So if you can invest in it, it’s really powerful.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    Well, Susan, you mentioned that you had two examples of companies that are doing employer branding right. What’s the second?

    Susan LaMotte:

    The second example is Baxter. Baxter is a health care company out of Chicago. Their employer brand leader, Allison Kruse, has done a really wonderful job with consistency. And I say that because oftentimes with employer brands, we do lean heavy on content, but it’s just on getting content out there without a strategy. Allison’s been doing this long enough to know that you’ve got to have a strategy behind it, then your content activation will land because it’s a consistent message over and over and over again.

    So if you go search the #ThisIsWhere on LinkedIn, you will see the Baxter employer brand campaign, “This Is Where,” over and over and over again. And that’s the value of it, because most organizations have never done an employer brand before. So they need some sort of anchor to anchor their content. Now, if you unpack “This Is Where,” it’s not just a great line or a great way to organize content, there is thousands, tens of thousands of data points behind how they got to that and the actual strategy behind it. That’s where most organizations fail, is they don’t put that thought leadership that Allison and her team did in order to build the employer brand.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    One of the themes that keeps coming up, Susan, is a theme around the human at work. It’s so important, right, that we focus on the human. This is something you and I have been talking about. This is something that you’ve brought up several times. Can you talk to me a little bit about what that means beyond the buzzwords? Because right now everybody is trying to get human and get radically human, but I think you have some particularly unique insights on what that really means.

    Susan LaMotte:

    When we think about work, we think about it as a transaction, we always have, right? It’s you’re getting money to do a job. When we treat it that way, it takes away the value that work can actually bring. Not suggesting people spend their whole lives working, but when we humanize the employment relationship, it just means thinking about the fact that you’re not in a transaction. You’re not buying something here, you’re not trading something, you are entering into a relationship with another group of human beings. And so, the idea is — and we’ve spent the past five, seven years focused on relationship theory — so if you look at relationships, romantic relationships, collegial relationships, your friends, family, they’re all based on centering the strength of the relationship around common goals. You know, what is important to us together, but also in getting through those hard times.

    And so, in relationship theory, they call them strong-pair bonds, right? So that’s what underscores a successful marriage, is a strong-pair bond. Think about that with employment. If we think about it as a transaction, right now everybody’s throwing money at candidates, right, to get them to come. We just think about it as a transaction. We don’t think about what’s actually going to bond this human to the workplace and to the other humans that they’re now in relationships with. And a transaction, the money is just not going to do it.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    Well, I wonder how you keep things radically human at your organization. You’re not only doing this work for others, but you’re constantly working on relationships within exaqueo. So how do you keep it human? How do you get people to really buy in to your brand and what you’re offering day in, day out?

    Susan LaMotte:

    I think that comes from the inside out. I think part of it is recognizing that we are all human beings, and it’s creating a workplace that allows for humans to be humans. Now, we have a lot of working parents at exaqueo, so it starts there, offering flexible schedules, trusting people to get work done, giving them the grace when they need it, but also making clear that, when they have the time and energy to lean in, to help other colleagues that might need that grace. So we’ve been virtual for a decade, since the day we started. Originally, it was a business decision because there wasn’t a lot of employer brand talent because the industry was still burgeoning, and so I knew there would be no one city that I could start the firm and find the talent we needed. As we’ve evolved over time and as all of our team members have had more and more kids, have had familial challenges, or just pursuing passions outside work, we’ve realized the importance of that kind of flexibility. That’s not just schedule, but it’s actually human flexibility. The sort of intuition to say, “I can tell Laurie’s going through a really rough time right now, let me lean in and help her.”

    The other thing we do is as we’re hiring people, and we’re in the midst of doing that right now, we have something partway through our hiring journey called the experience conversation. And what that is, we turn the tables. And so, if you were a candidate, we would say to you, “The next interview, if you will, or the next time we talk, that conversation is yours to lead.” And we share with them the four relationship dimensions we use in employer brand, which are the organization, the leaders, the co-workers and your work. We say, “Come prepared to that conversation. Ask us anything about those four topics because that’s how you’re going to really dig in and understand what the human relationship is going to be like.”

    What’s my relationship going to be like with this organization? What about my leaders, what are they like? What are the things they do that are annoying so I can decide if I can deal with that. Same with my co-workers, who are they as people. And then the work itself. So that conversation’s really valuable because it puts the human at the center because they’re trying to make a decision, too. And so it allows them this platform to say, “Hey, we’re open, we’re vulnerable. We’re authentic. This is not a show. Ask away.”

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    Well, as we wrap up the conversation, I wonder if there are things you’d like to leave our audience with regarding whether it’s employer branding or working women during COVID. What are some of the things that are on your mind that you want to make sure that you convey at this moment?

    Susan LaMotte:

    I think there are so many trends happening in relationships that we need to pay attention to. And so, if you step back and you look at your own life, you look at the relationships that are strong, the relationships that are maybe not so strong, it gives you an opportunity to compare that to work. Ask yourself, “Why is this relationship in my life so strong? What is it about my husband, my wife, my partner, my spouse, my best friend, my parents — what is it about that human that makes this relationship strong?” And then apply that to work.

    One of the really interesting trends coming out of relationship theory is that, in the past couple of years in relationships, people have decided that they want more sexual partners than just one. So monogamy is starting to fade. And part of that is, if you take out the core principles of evolutionary psychology, it’s this desire to have multiple opportunities. And so, when you look at that, and you compare what’s happening in the gig economy, there is a direct parallel. For me in HR, instead of spending time on the latest cool piece of tech that’s going to allow us to get more people into our pipeline. Gosh, stop for a second and look around you at what’s happening. Your best relationships are the people who stuck by you during the worst times in your life.

    So if you circle it back to HR, and I just keep people for pay, and I think I’m going to attract and retain more talent by giving them more money, forget about it. Because guess what’s going to happen: The economy’s going to tank again at some point. We’re going to have to stabilize salaries, and people are going to remember that. They will say, “You promised me this, and now you’re taking it away.” Imagine a romantic relationship that behaved in that way; it would never last. So that’s what’s exciting to me.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    Oh my God, Susan, I could talk about this stuff all day long. I’m so honored that you came on the podcast today. It’s been a long time coming. And if people want to learn more about you and what you do for a living, where can they find you?

    Susan LaMotte:

    They can find us at exaqueo.com, E-X-A-Q-U-E-O.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    Well, Susan, thanks again for being a guest on Punk Rock HR.

    Susan LaMotte:

    Thanks for having me, Laurie.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    Hey, everybody. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Punk Rock HR. We are proudly underwritten by The Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is the B2B marketing agency for innovative brands creating the future of workplace solutions. For more information, head on over to thestarconspiracy.com. Punk Rock HR is pretty and edited by Rep Cap, with special help from Michael Thibodeaux and Devon McGrath. For more information, show notes, links, and resources, head on over to punkrockhr.com. Now, that’s all for today, and I hope you enjoyed it. We’ll see you next time on Punk Rock HR.

  • Gaining Confidence in Speaking with Page Fehling

    Gaining Confidence in Speaking with Page Fehling

    Today, my guest is Page Fehling, a sought-after speaker, best-selling author, award-winning podcast host and, more importantly, my friend. Page is joining me on this episode because she’s a veteran news anchor with a 20-year career in broadcast journalism. Page recently left that role to open up a consulting firm specializing in helping companies and individuals gain confidence in what they do and how they communicate.

    You heard right. Page is teaching people how to speak about themselves publicly, their ideas and their work. And she would love to teach you how to do that, too. In today’s episode, we talk about public speaking; Page shares tips on how to show up at work or outside of work and communicate who you are and what you do. Most importantly, we’re talking about the pivot she made during COVID-19 and what it was like for her.

    Page was one of the first people I met when I moved to North Carolina. I love her warmth and enthusiasm, but more importantly, I admire everything she does. So, if you’re ready to become a better communicator, sit back and enjoy our conversation.

    The Starr Conspiracy

    Punk Rock HR is proudly underwritten by The Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is a B2B marketing agency for innovative brands creating the future of workplace solutions. For more information, head over to thestarrconspiracy.com.

    Benefits of Becoming a Good Communicator

    Communication is key to getting what you need as an employee. So when your employer can look to you and know that you can clearly represent yourself and the company as a whole, they take notice. “That is a skill you can barely put a price tag on,” Page shares. 

    Being a good communicator is the skill that every employer wants and adds tremendous value for the employee. Employers take pride in saying “that’s my person” when people are impressed with your confidence and presence. They want to know who you are, where you work and who you work for, and this is why Page does the work that she does.

    When you have that confidence, you open up opportunities you didn’t even know were waiting for you, like landing a new job or obtaining a raise. “When you come up to your next contract negotiation, or you’re going into a job interview, and you blow them away with your confidence in yourself and your ability to communicate whatever it is that you’re trying to get across, you are worth so much more to your company or to yourself if you’re self-employed,” Page explains.

    Fear Is Not Permanent

    While gaining that confidence to speak and represent yourself in public is excellent, many people still struggle because of fear. These fears are real but fixable, whether it’s the fear of blowing an interview, fear of lacking a good story to tell or concern about making good eye contact. 

    Page has heard all these fears and knows that one of the most common is making good eye contact. That’s why Page developed different workshops that help individuals and companies work through their fears, especially when it comes to eye contact. 

    Eye contact is essential because you want to see that the person actually listens to what you are saying. “The best quote, and I can never remember who said it, so I always just say you can give me credit for this quote, but they say eye contact is like an electrical current,” Page shares. “If you keep it on for too long, it can be shocking. If you turn it off too quickly, you lose power.”

    This is not an easy skill for everyone, but practicing and developing methods to improve will help. “The more you practice it, the more natural it becomes,” she says.

    Moving Past the Nerves

    One thing to understand about nerves is that they’re an essential component of speaking. No matter how experienced you are, the nerves will hit you every time, but they can actually do more good than harm. Nerves should help you lock in and get focused, not shake you, make you feel bad and negatively affect your performance. 

    Page suggests putting yourself into a triumphant pose. This helps to put yourself into a more positive mindset physically. “Putting your body into space that makes you feel good, taking your mind off whatever it is that you’re talking about. If you’re playing your walk-up music and you’re getting yourself into some triumphal poses and taking your deep breaths, that’s just one really simple way to help,” she says.

    Another trick, and one of Page’s favorites, is using a pen to force yourself to smile. Yes, a pen, but it really works! Page explains, “Put the pen in between your teeth and don’t let your lips touch the pen. Count up to 10 and back down to zero.” 

    Once you are done, you’ll find yourself smiling. “Studies show that, if you can put the muscles of your face into the shape of a smile, endorphins get released into your brain even if the emotion was not there,” she explains. 

    These and other tips can help you when you are feeling nervous, and doing simple exercises can significantly impact your mood. “Doing a simple thing like a five- to 10-second pen trick changes your energy,” Page shares.

    [bctt tweet=”‘Doing a simple thing like a five- to 10-second pen trick changes your energy,’ says @pagefox46, a speaker, best-selling author and award-winning podcast host. Tune in to #PunkRockHR to learn how Page helps people become better speakers.” via=”no”]

    People in This Episode

    Full Transcript

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    This episode of Punk Rock HR is sponsored by The Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is the B2B marketing agency for innovative brands, creating the future of workplace solutions. For more information, head on over to thestarrconspiracy.com. 

    Hey, everybody. I’m Laurie Ruettimann. Welcome back to Punk Rock HR. My guest today is Page Fehling. She’s a sought-after speaker, best-selling author, award-winning podcast host and, more importantly, my friend. Page is on the show today because she’s had a 20-year career in broadcast journalism. She’s a veteran news anchor who just recently left that role and opened up a consultancy to help companies and individuals gain confidence in what they do and how they communicate.

    That’s right. Page is teaching people how to speak in public about themselves, about big ideas, about their workplace. And she would love to teach you how to do it. And in today’s episode, that’s what we do. We talk about public speaking. She gives some great tips, so you can show up at work and outside of work and communicate who you are and what you do. 

    But more importantly, we also talk about that pivot that she made during COVID and what that was like. Page is one of the first people I met when I moved to North Carolina, and I love her warmth, I love her enthusiasm. And most importantly, I just admire everything she does. So if you’re interested in learning how to be a better communicator, I invite you to sit back and enjoy this conversation with Page. 

    Hey, Page. Welcome to the podcast.

    Page Fehling:

    Thank you so much for having me.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    I am giggling already. I’m so pleased you are here. And for people who don’t know who you are and what you’re all about, why don’t you tell us?

    Page Fehling:

    Yeah, so I’m Page Fehling, and I hope you’re giggling because you and I tend to make each other laugh. You certainly have made me laugh since I’ve ever known you. I am a former TV news anchor turned what I actually really thought I would be doing all along, which is teaching people basically how to communicate better with each other and on their own behalf. Just walking into the confidence of being able to speak in their authentic voices in a variety of settings. I do that in training classes, I do it on one-on-one coaching. And I really just try to help people learn how to — whether they want to give a TED talk or they want to just feel comfortable standing up at a chamber meeting — being able to say their name and what they do without their heart beating out of their chest. Or, having their heartbeat out of their chest, but doing it anyway. I try to help people with that.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    Well, I know something about you, and that is you are a secret HR lady. Tell us about that.

    Page Fehling:

    Yeah. Because people always say, “How did you go from news to doing this?” And anyone who’s known me for a while, it’s not such a huge surprise because I always kind of did this type of thing on the side anyway, even in my 15-plus-year career in news. But my grandmother actually started in the ’50s when she wanted to get out of the house. She had six children and the fifth of those six children had special needs. And she said to my grandfather, “I just need something to get me out to do something for myself.” So she went to the local Junior League, and they said, “Can you teach finishing-school classes?” So she started off teaching women how to walk with books on their head and how to use the right fork and all of those manners-type things.

    And it turned into, hey, can you teach secretarial skills? And she said — by the way, my grandmother had never been a secretary — “Sure. Yeah, I can teach secretarial skills.” Go learn secretary skills, teach that. It transitioned into evolving through the years in various different things. And later on, he was stationed at the Pentagon, and she started getting work with government, within the HR departments. They were looking for people to teach, which at the time were called soft skills. They now refer to them as power skills, I think, in the HR world a lot. They should if they don’t.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    They should if they don’t. Absolutely.

    Page Fehling:

    Right. So anything around interpersonal communication in the workplace. And my mom and my uncle, two of the six, ended up doing the same thing. And when I was about 12 years old, my choice was: stay at home alone because my parents weren’t going to hire a babysitter anymore, be at the risk of bodily harm by my older brother who used me as a punching bag. It’s fine. We’re best friends now. But I could do that, or I could go to work with my mom. And I went to work with her, learned what she was teaching, jumped up there and taught some myself. And here I am today finally going back to what I thought I would be doing all along. I just took a 15-year detour into news there for a bit.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    Well, let’s talk a little bit about that detour, because like so many people, you’ve pivoted during the pandemic. So what were you doing at the beginning in February of 2020?

    Page Fehling:

    Oh, gosh. I mean, shaking hands with people, right?

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    Well, yeah, you were.

    Page Fehling:

    Seeing human beings in real life. Remember what that was like?

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    Yes.

    Page Fehling:

    I was doing all of that. Career-wise, I was in news. I was hosting a morning show and having, honestly, the time of my life doing it. I loved my job for so long. For so many years I couldn’t believe I got paid to do it. I hosted a morning show from 4:30 in the morning until 9 in the morning. So four-and-a-half hours of live local news every morning. I would wake up at 1:57 a.m. That was not my favorite part of the job. I always tell people I woke up yesterday for work today. There was just a weird clock thing going on, but then I was done at noon, and I had the rest of the day to myself to be in a really bad mood and sleep as much as I could.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    Well, I want to ask about that because they talk about the effects of lack of sleep on the body. Did you feel that?

    Page Fehling:

    Oh, 1,000%. Now, I will say this. I also had itty-bitty kids at the time and I wondered at the time. I said — and I still think it’s true in many ways — it was a great schedule for us because I had the second half of the day and my husband had the first half. We kind of covered our bases that way. If I could get that nap or get to sleep early enough, I think that combined, I would sometimes get a normal amount of sleep. But for the years that we did it, it actually worked well for us.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    So I wonder what your life was like in local news as the pandemic emerged and what kind of additional pressures that put on your career. What did it feel like to be reporting on this?

    Page Fehling:

    It was the hardest thing, I would say. Really, the whole year of 2020, all of the news, what came into the news cycle, for me, during my career, those were the biggest times that I really was looking around going, “Are we keeping people safe or are we putting people in positions where we’re telling them that it is safe when it’s not? Or that something is happening that we’re putting into the news cycle and making it news when it’s not?” I mean, because it was not just coronavirus. It was coronavirus and then also George Floyd’s death, which led to much-needed conversations in our country and in our world and society. All of which, though, put a lot of pressure on news to get it right. The news always needs to get it right, but these were life and death situations that really, it was uber-important to do that. 

    And I give credit to anyone who works in news and anyone who works their butt off to do that because they try really hard to do exactly that. And at the same time they’re human beings. And it should go without saying that they’re not always going to get it right. And they’re sometimes going to have things lost in translational or just reworded in a way that people interpret a certain way or that is — you say the wrong thing and God forbid. So yeah, every script you read, you’re going, “Is this word OK? Is that phrase OK? What perspectives do we need to be taking into account here to be sure we’re telling all sides of all stories?”

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    So you go through 2020 and you have this experience, and here comes 2021 and we all think it’s going to get better, and it doesn’t. And you, at some point, make a decision to pivot. Tell us about that.

    Page Fehling:

    Well, like I said, for me, this was a decision that was a long time coming. It’s something I had kind of done along the way, sort of in conjunction with my news career. When you work in news, especially when you work on the on-camera side of things, you often get asked to MC something or to come speak at something. So I had dipped my toe, kept doing that for a long time. My husband and I also co-host a podcast together. We wrote a book together. So we were kind of out there in capacities that weren’t just Page from TV, Jake for Movement Mortgage. People knew both of us, really, in sort of a different capacity. So I think that it wasn’t a huge surprise to anyone when they saw the news. And it also wasn’t something that I all of a sudden went, “I can’t do news anymore. I need a change.”

    It was sort of like the whole time I was looking around going, “When’s going to be the right time to transition out of news and do this thing that I really have wanted to do all along?” And when I say all along, I don’t mean that I was unhappy doing news. The reason I didn’t leave to do what I’m doing now before is because I couldn’t walk away from something I was enjoying and felt like I was actually contributing to our society in a way that I felt good about for so long. It was like, why would I do that? And then when that kind of backed off a bit more, the timing lined up and everything fell into place.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    I find that so many working parents got their butts kicked during the pandemic. And when I brought this up to you earlier, I actually phrased it as working mothers. And you’re like, “No, working parents.” So I want to talk about that distinction, why that distinction is so important to you. And I wonder if it was just like so many women or men in the workforce where you were like, “I’m not surviving a pandemic to wait on my dream another day.” So take me through the distinction between working parent and working mother, though. Why is that important to you?

    Page Fehling:

    Oh, I love you for bringing that up because you’re so right. I feel like I often check people on that because I have to check myself on that. I do that all the time still to other mothers. It is 100% understandable that we all still say, “Working moms. How do moms do it?” I mean, listen, we grew up in a generation where it was still unusual to some extent to have a mom working out of the house. So I get why we all do it. I do it myself. But I think now that it’s more common for both parents to be working or for a mom to be working and a dad to be home or single parenting in a variety of ways. It’s important for a variety of reasons: A, to normalize that everybody can be out there working. And also, the more we keep making it mom-specific, the more it keeps just being the mom’s problem.

    And that’s just not fair, right? I went to a working mom’s luncheon one time where we had a dad panel and one of the guys goes, “My wife wants to go back to work right now.” And he goes, “I’m going to be honest with you.” And this poor man said this in front of a room of working women. So bless him for having the courage to do this. He goes, “I want her to stay home because I don’t want to have to pitch in on kids’ lunches and kids schedules and —” And I went, good for you to be, because of course you do. I get that. I wish Jake and I had a third wife, a third spouse, to help us with that. Because depending on what you’re used to, it is easier if you kind of divide and conquer. But if it’s more fulfilling to both people to both be out there, then you make that work, too.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    So I brought it up because I wanted to position originally the discussion around working mothers, because so many of them really did struggle to a higher degree than working fathers did during the pandemic. There’s all sorts of data around that. And I see so many working mothers, not necessarily working fathers, who feel like they have to make a binary choice during COVID. They can’t move on their dreams. They have to either be a parent or a worker. They have to make these ridiculous sacrifices to their sleep, to their well-being, to their dreams, to their passions. And I thought it was incredibly inspirational that in the midst of all this, which you are feeling and Jake is feeling as a parent, as well, that you did pursue your dreams. I thought that was really laudable and interesting. I don’t know. I mean, I think for so many people, they would be like, “Why now in the middle of COVID with all of this craziness? Even if you did love your job, why be an entrepreneur now?”

    Page Fehling:

    The fact of the matter is it’s not laudable at all. It didn’t take bravery on my part, it took privilege. And the reason that I was able to do it is because my husband has a solid job with a solid paycheck and benefits and security. So I’m able to do that. And you’re exactly right. So many people, and women in particular, felt — even if they didn’t “have to” — they felt like it made the most sense for them to be the one to step back from their career, because a lot of women still don’t make as much as a lot of men. So if they had a conversation between each other, if it’s a spouse situation and they went logically speaking, who makes more sense to stay home and homeschool the kids while they’re on virtual?

    The one of us who makes more money should go to work and the other one should stay home and do this. Or if you are the only parent and you’re a mom or whatever the situation is, you can’t have a 5-year-old home homeschooling themselves and still be going to work. It was just a lose-lose. So for me, it wasn’t courage at all. It was the fact that I had the privilege, the luxury of being able to do that.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    Well, one of the things I love about your new career, which is really your old career in your heart, in your bones. Your new career is that you’re working with individuals and employers to help people be better communicators. And I wonder if we can talk about the employee side for a second? What does it mean to be a good communicator as an employee? And why is this important to you?

    Page Fehling:

    I think if you are an employee, for whatever company it is, and your employer is able to look around and go, “Who in this room can we send out to any place, any space, any setting, and they will represent not only themselves, but our company well?” That is a skill you can barely put a price tag on. And if you are making blank salary right now, and you can go to your employer, or with your employer — let’s say you guys go together to a chamber event or to a meeting in the community, whatever it is. And you stand up and you just have presence and confidence and you’re able to show, and people are looking like, who is that? Who do they work for? What do they do?

    If you’re the employer and you go, “That’s my person.” Hell yeah, get that person. There is no skill that you can put a price tag on. And then guess what? When you come up to your next contract negotiation or you’re going into a job interview and you blow them away with your confidence in yourself and your ability to communicate whatever it is that you’re trying to get across, you are worth so much more to your company or to yourself if you’re self-employed.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    I love this idea of really just emphasizing communication skills for the worker, for the job seeker, for the employee. When I coach people who are looking for work, their No. 1 fear is that conversation in the interview, they’re going to blow it. They’re worried about not being able to tell a good story. They don’t make good eye contact, right? These are all things that are fixable. And I would imagine these are things you coach on, right?

    Page Fehling:

    Oh my gosh, yes. So I love that you just said eye contact. I do, like I said, two sort of forms for training with this. Either a company will bring me in and I’ll train their leadership or their people or whoever it is that they put in a group. Or because I’ve realized individuals need and want this themselves, I’ve put together these workshops myself where people come in from various different industries and they’re there on their own learning from each other, too, which is a really cool element. And we break down all of the different parts. And eye contact is one of them. The best quote, and I can never remember who said it, so I always just say you can give me credit for this quote, but they say eye contact is like electrical current. If you keep it on for too long, it can be shocking. If you turn it off too quickly, you lose power.

    So in other words, not staring too much at people, whether it’s in a crowd, but kind of hitting on everybody. Little things like that, because like you said, when nerves kick in or if you feel like you’re just not naturally a good communicator to a group or in a one-on-one setting, there are things that you can do to go, “OK, we’re going to break down the actual components of this.” So that when the nerves kick in and you start to go, “Oh, I can’t do this. I don’t know what to do.” Oh yeah, there’s actual things — “I need to be looking about three seconds here and then about three — and it sounds silly, but the more you practice it, the more natural it becomes. I mean, nerves is the other big question I get from people, right? What do I do about nerves? By the way, I don’t know about you, Laurie. I speak much of the time for my work now. I still get nervous. Do you still get nervous, too?

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    Listen, lady. If I’m not nervous, something is wrong. That means I’m lazy or I’m silly or I’ve had too much champagne. I don’t know what it is, but if I’m not nervous, it’s going to go downhill. So yeah, nerves are an essential component. What do you advise?

    Page Fehling:

    So I say the same thing. I played softball my whole life, and the games that I was throwing up in the bathroom beforehand, I played the best because I’m on, right? Your energy’s kind of jiving. You’re alert and nothing’s going to happen. If you’re laid back going into it and you’re taking it, things are going to slip. If you’re not taking it seriously, and those nerves aren’t making you kind of lock in, but you don’t want it to let you be shaky or to make you feel bad. So there’s one really practical thing that I do, a couple of things. One is triumphant poses. And I tell people to get in triumphant poses. You’re a CrossFitter, too, right? You know the dumbbell snatches where you’re going up and you’re putting your hands in the air and taking up space in the room? Putting your body into space that makes you feel good.

    Taking your mind off whatever it is that you’re talking about. If you’re playing your walk-up music and you’re getting yourself into some triumphal poses and taking your deep breaths, that’s just one really simple way to help. And one of my favorite tips — do you have a pen with you? If you’re listening, anyone listening at home, grab a pen or use your finger. We’re not as worried about germs when it’s our own, right? OK. So take this. I don’t know if this will play as well on a podcast, but people can still hear it, right? So put the pen in between your teeth and don’t let your lips touch the pen. Count up to 10. I’ll just do five for time. Count up to five and back down to zero. Ready? One, two, three, four, five. Five, four, three, two, one. Take your pen or your finger out. Laurie, what are you doing right now?

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    I’m smiling.

    Page Fehling:

    You are smiling. Exactly. And studies show that if you can put the muscles of your face into the shape of a smile, endorphins get released into your brain even if the emotion was not there. So I always tell people who, A, are nervous or B, have RBF, they just kind of come from a place of natural — their expressions, especially when nerves kick in, some people tend to shut down a little bit. Doing a simple thing like a five- to 10-second pen trick changes your energy.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    I love it. That’s amazing. So I wonder if your lessons are different for communicators who primarily use Zoom or — we’re on SquadCast right now. I think the screen poses all sorts of complexities. I’m balancing an AirPod in my ear and I’ve got your face kind of next to the green dot that I’m staring at, right? So all of it is kind of different, and yet some of it is the same. So what do you have for that?

    Page Fehling:

    It is tricky. And it’s so funny because people always talk about transitioning into doing it in person. They go, “But you certainly couldn’t just — I mean, who can make it come alive when you’re just staring at a black hole the whole time?” Right? And I go, “Oh, I stared at a black hole for 15 years of my career. I got you.” If you’re on Zoom, we can still make this happen. So one practical tip I have for that, and I heard this actually from Barbara Corcoran, you know “Shark Tank,” the real estate mogul? She said when she first started doing on-camera work, it felt very unfamiliar to her. So she would take a picture of her mother and paste it behind where the camera is. And she would just make eye contact with her mom the whole time and tell her mom the story so that it felt familiar to her. But the key there, also, is that she had in the spot where her eyes were supposed to be.

    I always have people take their phones out during the training too and take a picture. Again, if you’re listening or whenever you have a minute, just take your phone on selfie mode and put it on your own face and snap a picture of yourself looking at yourself, making eye contact with yourself, and then look at the camera, the actual camera hole and take a picture of that and scroll back and forth between those two pictures. And you’ll see what a difference it makes. You want to look at yourself or the person you’re talking to on a Zoom. If you’re talking to a single individual — Laurie, I’ve been looking into your eyes this whole time on this podcast, even though you’re just using audio. People at home, I’m getting to see Laurie this whole time, too. But if I were addressing a group of a lot of people, I would be looking at the camera so that they would feel like I was making eye contact directly with them the whole time.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    That’s really great advice. And I think about the employer side of things, because there are a lot of reasons why employers should invest in better communication skills for their workforce. But I like your take on how this fits into a diversity, equity and inclusion and belonging strategy. Can you take us through that?

    Page Fehling:

    Yes. Because as you and I have discussed, you come from the world of HR through the decades and how that’s changed and —

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    Hey, you’re making me feel old now. Come on now.

    Page Fehling:

    I meant you and me.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    The decades. Yes, two decades.

    Page Fehling:

    Listen.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    It’s plural, but not three.

    Page Fehling:

    I was including myself in that as well. And what I was really thinking of is my grandmother, where this all started for me. I remember when she started, it was, fit this professional mode. It was, if you were going to be a professional, you need to look this way. You need to sound this way. You need to wear this, do your hair this way. And thankfully we are all now coming around to where we go, “Oh, people can be really good at all kinds of jobs and look different and sound different and have physical capabilities.” 

    And so helping employers see that when you look around — now, this comes from either the employer’s perspective or the employee’s perspective — when you’re looking around a room or a company and you say, “There’s nobody else here who looks like me or sounds like me, or has my background or my physical capabilities or practices, my religion.” Instead of thinking, “I don’t belong here, ” changing that mindset to “there’s no one else here who, for whatever reason, blank like me. What unique perspective do I bring to the table that people here may not have thought of?” Such a confidence builder for the individual who feels different. And it’s such a confidence instiller in the employer who’s able to look around and go, “All of us are in an echo chamber. What does this unique person say that we may not be thinking of?” I had a woman in class just the other day. Her first language is not English. She speaks Spanish natively. And one of the things I have people do is for one minute, they have to draw a question out of a hat and just talk about it for one minute, whatever it is. I think the one that she got was, if you were an aunt dropped into a blender, how would you get out? It’s silly stuff.

    And she doesn’t speak English as her first language. And she got stuck on the word for blade, blender blade. And she kind of paused and she looked over and she goes, “See, this is what happens. I don’t speak this language. So I’m already nervous. And now I can’t think of the word.” And I said, “Well, what is it in Spanish?” And I can’t remember what it was in Spanish, but she said the word in Spanish, and it was a really cute kind of fun-sounding word. And people in my class went, “Oh, that’s good.” And she goes, “Yeah, it’s a little different.” And people started kind of asking questions, and it led to a really great discussion of two things. A, you just taught us something new. That was a really cool thing that none of us knew the Spanish word. And as a technique for as a speaker, it lets you go, “You got in a sticky situation there where you weren’t sure how to get out. By bringing in your audience, they helped you, and you made them feel more included, and it all kind of came together full circle.”

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    Oh yeah, that’s beautiful. I also worry that sometimes people feel stuck when they don’t speak English as a first language. That they have to be perfect or they have to present, quite honestly, as white. So do you ever address that in your sessions?

    Page Fehling:

    Yes, for sure, because you’re exactly right. I mean, I think it kind of goes back to, like you said, people now are more familiar with the term code switching, right? In terms of sounding white or even just bearing a regional accent — if you’re from the South or you’re from the North or feeling like you can’t talk that way. And again, the more we train the audience. I always tell people that the forgotten side of the listening communication partnership is don’t be an a-hole audience member. Because the only reason — when I get up there and I worry that people are nitpicking what I’m saying is because I know that sometimes, when I’m in the audience, I’m nitpicking what someone’s saying or how they’re saying it or what they have on or whatever the case is.

    So part of it is changing our own mindsets and being more accepting and more understanding of whoever it is that’s up there. And also just knowing that brings value. Again, it is a diversity that comes to the table that otherwise people may not have heard and addressing it. I think it’s OK to say. It sort of lightens the tension in the room. If there is an obvious difference between you and other people in the room, saying that first thing and sort of easing that tension in the air, I think, helps everyone a lot, too.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    Well, as we’ve been talking, I’ve been thinking about my own career because I’m a selfish narcissist. That’s how that goes. And one of the things —

    Page Fehling:

    With you.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    — that I don’t miss about public speaking is that evaluation process, where at the end of your speech, the event planners will hand out that sheet of paper and go, “How did Laurie Ruettimann do?” Right? And a bunch of people who’ve never been trained on giving feedback and who have never met me leave all sorts of helpful and unhelpful comments. Like, “She was great. She’s funny. I didn’t like her shirt.” Or, “I didn’t like seeing her tattoos.” Right? I still got this. In fact, I was speaking in Wisconsin in October of 2021 and I got a comment saying, “We all dressed up for this event. I don’t think Laurie dressed up enough.”

    And years ago, I would ask event planners proactively to strip out those kinds of comments. Just, “Hey, listen, I’m open to feedback, but if you get that, I don’t want to see it.” And I forgot to do that. And I saw it, and it really felt soul-crushing. So I don’t know if you’ve ever had that experience or if you’ve talked to other speakers and any thoughts on that. Because it’s sexist. It can be racist when it happens to other people. It can be sizeist, ableist, but more importantly, it’s just frustrating. And I’m like, “Did I survive a pandemic for this?” Right? So I don’t know —

    Page Fehling:

    It just kind of takes the wind out of your sails, right?

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    It really did.

    Page Fehling:

    Yeah. That’s hard. One piece of feedback I get a lot that does kind of — well, I don’t know if it even rubs me the wrong way, but I get it a fair amount — is that I talk too fast. And I spent my career for, as I’ve said a million times on this podcast, 17 years talking on TV, reading scripts. And guess what? I talk too fast. I know that to be true, especially when I get excited about something and I’m passionate about it, or maybe I’m nervous or whatever the case is, I can get rolling. And I just zoom. And I know as an audience member, when someone speaks too fast, it puts me on edge because it makes you feel like this person needs to calm down a little. I sweat a lot.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    Or your brain can’t keep up with it.

    Page Fehling:

    Right.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    Yeah, I get that. Right. Yeah.

    Page Fehling:

    All of those things. Depending on a couple things, for me, a lot of it comes in the confidence, too, of being able to go, “They’re right. I do talk fast.” I hope that the message that I bring and the overall feel that I bring to the communication of whatever the message and the topic is, that these people will, A, find enough value in what they’re learning from and with me. And B, enjoy my company enough to be able to look past some of those things that may or may not be true. And if they are true, I know it’s something I can work on.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    I love it. Thank you for reminding me and also helping me to reframe the feedback. So, Page, I really want to get back to entrepreneurship because I just think it’s so fascinating when someone who has a regular paycheck decides to give that up and to go out and kill basically everything they eat. And that’s what you’ve done. You’re out there on the plains with a big spear in your hand going after water buffalo. I don’t know what you’re doing, but that’s the role of an entrepreneur. So what’s that been like for you? I mean, it’s crazy anyway, but now it’s COVID.

    Page Fehling:

    Oh, it’s such a graphic description, and it’s so true. Two things I would say. For me, what has made it work and made it not as scary is that I did lay that path leading into it. I didn’t just blow things up and go, “And now I’m going to do this teaching thing.” I didn’t leave to become an artist because I don’t know how to paint. I left to do something I had done all along, and I knew I had skills in and I knew that I could bring value. And then this piece of advice actually was given to me at a wedding shower, and I use it in every setting because I think it’s so good.

    And it was a friend who just said, “Create your own normal.” And I find that to be so true. If you find that you want to do a career, leave a career — or to your point, what I loved about your book is that you made the point you might want to stay in your career, even though parts about it aren’t perfect. If you decide to do that, and you feel like everyone else in the world is going, “Pick up and follow your heart and do what you need to do.” If you think that it’s better for you to stay and make the best of whatever the situation is, and that is normal for you, and it works for you, then it works.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    I wonder what has surprised you about yourself during this journey?

    Page Fehling:

    How bad I am at keeping my time organized has been a big surprise for me. I heard an interview a couple weeks ago from Dwyane Wade. And in this way, and only this way, I compare myself to a retired NBA player. But he talked about how when he retired from the NBA, his schedule went from, you wake up at 9 for breakfast, shootaround’s at 10, game pre-press is at 3, game time is at 7. Everything was structured for him. And he goes, “Now I wake up and I go, ‘I have a bunch of different things I need to do, but it’s up to me when I do them and how I do them.’”

    I mean, the same was true for me. My alarm went off at 2 a.m.. I have two and a half hours from that point on to wake up, get dressed, hair and makeup, read scripts, be on set at 4:20 ready to read through four-and-a-half hours of live television scripts and interviews, et cetera. And now the world is my oyster, but if I don’t put a deadline on something, it doesn’t get done. And I’m the one who’s doing it all. So it’s hard. It’s been very much a learning process. I’m sure you can relate.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    Well, for sure. And a lot of people laugh at the idea of a morning routine. And I absolutely live and die by my morning routine. It’s not glamorous. I’m not like Tim Ferriss or Gary V here but —

    Page Fehling:

    You don’t cold plunge every morning?

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    I don’t. I take it easy. I see my kitties, I ride a little bit, but I wonder if you have a morning routine and would you share it?

    Page Fehling:

    I wish that it was more of a routine. I will put it this way: I find that my most productive days are the days when I start with a 5:30 workout class and then I come home and I have — that gets me home just in time to get my daughter to the bus stop. Then I come home and I have about an hour while my boys wake up and I get them off and I take them to school. And then I come home and can really kind of get down to work by myself, because I’ve checked the box of the one thing that wakes me up, makes me feel good, makes me feel like I’ve already accomplished something for that day. So, for sure, starting off with a workout or moving my body in some capacity sets my day off right.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    Well, Page, as we wrap up the conversation, I just wonder if there’s anything you want our audience to remember about this conversation we had because it’s wide-ranging. We’ve talked about the news, your entrepreneurial journey, being a speaker, going to speaking classes. What do you want people to leave with?

    Page Fehling:

    It might be a bit unexpected based on what we’ve talked about, but I think that a running theme throughout a lot of this — and it fits in with anyone who has a career change — is giving yourself and other people understanding and a little bit of grace in whatever it is that they’re going through. So if you are finding that you want to be a better communicator, but you feel like you’re not good at it yet, that’s OK. You can work at that. That is something you can be better at. If you’re in a job that you don’t love as much, that’s OK. You can do something about that.

    If you are watching other people in either one of those positions, and you find yourself going, “Why doesn’t this knucklehead just blah, blah, blah?” You know what? Maybe they’re not ready to yet, but they’ll get there, too. And maybe you can be an example of a way that they can do that and they can learn from you, as well. So I think that it helps all of us with all of our confidence, and that translates into every other part of our life by giving ourselves and each other a little bit of like, “You know what? You’ll be all right.”

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    My friend, where can people find you, learn more about your good stuff and all things related to your ecosystem?

    Page Fehling:

    So my website is just my full name, all one word. And they’re both bizarre spellings and pronunciations, but it’s Page Fehling. Page is just like page in a book with no I. P-A-G-E-F like ford, E-H-L-I-N-G.com. I’m the same on Instagram. That’s really kind of where I live as far as social media goes. Just @pagefehling. Either one of those places, I’ll give you a pretty good idea and a way to reach me. I would love to hear from people.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    Yeah. Maybe we’ll connect with you on LinkedIn. Are you out there?

    Page Fehling:

    I need to be.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    Yeah.

    Page Fehling:

    I know.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    Let me be your HR lady wake-up call right here.

    Page Fehling:

    I know. You’re so right, Laurie.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    That’s where all the listeners are.

    Page Fehling:

    Yes. I’ll be there. I exist there. It’s not as familiar of a place for me. So, listen, if you’re listening and you see me on there, say hi because I’m the new girl, and I won’t know as many people on LinkedIn, and I would love a friendly face.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    There you go. Well, thanks again for being a guest today.

    Page Fehling:

    Thanks for having me.

    Laurie Ruettimann:

    Hey, everybody. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Punk Rock HR. We are proudly underwritten by The Starr Conspiracy. The Starr Conspiracy is the B2B marketing agency for innovative brands, creating the future of workplace solutions. For more information, head on over to thestarrconspiracy.com. Punk Rock HR is produced and edited by Rep Cap with special help from Michael Thibodeaux and Devon McGrath. For more information, show notes, links, and resources, head on over to punkrockhr.com. Now, that’s all for today and I hope you enjoyed it. We’ll see you next time on Punk Rock HR. 

  • Punk Rock HR Shop

    I am the queen of HR swag, and now I’m opening up a Punk Rock HR Shop. 

    You’re like—what? 

    punk rock hr shop

    Here’s the backstory. Long before kids did their TikToks and snappy snaps, I used YouTube to review conference giveaways and tchotchkes. My old channel was full of reflections on squeeze balls, t-shirts, and tote bags. A vendor once gave away oil paintings, and the marketing team begged me to razz them on video.

    It’s been nine years since I made one of those videos, and I’m keeping my fingers crossed that karma isn’t a bitch because I’m selling Punk Rock HR merchandise.

    Why? 

    It’s all for the animals. There are t-shirts, hoodies, stickers, and mugs that will benefit rescued cats and kittens. You can even buy a half-hour of my time, and I’ll take the money and make a donation in your honor to Safe Haven for Cats.

    Now be warned: the shop is an experiment in e-commerce, built by a team of liberal arts majors who are bad at math and don’t like to spend money on shipping. Devon did some spreadsheets, but we’re keeping prices low. Honestly, I’m still unsure if we’ll make any money. Here’s my promise to you. If there’s a pile of cash left in my Bank of America bank account when this is all over, Safe Haven will get it. We promise transparency about this! 

    Don’t want any of the items in the Punk Rock HR shop? 

    That’s too bad. Buy something, anyway. It’s all about reciprocity. My mom once told me that I should have a baby ASAP because I’d never make back the money I spent on other people’s baby showers. 

    Again, I don’t surround myself with people who are good at math. Still, I know this: Punk Rock HR is my defacto baby in this scenario, and it would be great if you made my mom happy and bought a hoodie—especially if I ever bought Girl Scout cookies, wrapping paper, or magazine subscriptions from your kids. 

    How do I buy something for the kitties?

    Head on over to the Punk Rock HR shop right now and pick out something for yourself and your loved ones. Then, I’ll ship that shit straight from my living room and into your mailbox when I get a second.

    We’ll report back later in December on the total amount we’ve raised—or sooner if we sell out of merchandise.

    Now get shopping! 

  • This Week on Punk Rock HR: June 21, 2020

    Hey, everybody, this week’s Punk Rock HR newsletter is right up your alley. It covers what’s next at work and life. You can subscribe here. 📩 laurieruettimann.com/newsletter

    What’s next is that we have some work to do right now. What got us here to this moment of reckoning won’t get us there—to a better, safer world where individual worth matters more than the work we do for someone in power.

    I’m working on a couple of things, right now, to make the world a better place. First, I’m supporting Joe Biden for President and working hard to ensure his election. (Can you beat a cheater who teams with the Russians? I’m not sure.) He has an upcoming town hall with Barack Obama, and you can chip in anything to attend. You should go and learn more about the campaign.

    Next, four kittens are living in my bonus room above the garage. They were born under a double-wide trailer. My friend lost several of her part-time jobs due to the pandemic. She cannot afford to raise them, spay and neuter them, and find them homes. So, I took on these kitties as my summer project. Not everybody can protest or tear down Confederate statues, but everybody can meet a need in their local community. Feeling hopeless about the future? Get some kittens or puppies, and you’ll be too tired to scroll on Twitter and feel depressed.

    Finally, I’m amplifying good work done by my friends and colleagues. My weekly newsletter touches on the excellent work done by Kate Bischoff to move SHRM forward. If you want to know more about what’s happening at SHRM, read a superb roundup, and then lend a hand. ✊ https://cescobar.com/2020/06/20/we-need-courage-and-change-at-shrm/

    Newsletters won’t change the world, but they do keep us connected. It’s my goal to share three things every week: the best thing I’ve read, a message to inspire people to act, and a shoutout to someone who is doing great work.

    Hope you find it helpful. I wrote it for you.

    xo/Laurie

  • This Week on Punk Rock HR: The Job Hunt

    This week’s Punk Rock HR platform is all about a unified theme: looking for work.

    Tomorrow’s podcast features Amanda Nachman, founder of College Magazine and author of #QUALIFIED: You Are More Impressive Than You Realize, who’s helping you tackle impostor syndrome and get the job you want.

    This week’s newsletter answers, “What do I wear to a digital job interview?” You have to subscribe to hear the answer, but I think you’ll find it super helpful.

    And we are dedicating every Friday on the blog to mentorship, which means you’ll get a valuable chunk o’ wisdom (like this one about your job search) that will help you learn and grow.

    The first wave of COVID-19 was terrible, and the second wave will knock us back if we don’t come together and lead with compassion and courage. Let’s do the work now to prioritize our wellbeing. Let’s get comfortable with our careers being uncertain. And let’s start to hedge our bets and pool our time, resources, and energy so we can invest where it matters most: with ourselves, our families, and our community.